Subject: Larson Symposium BOB LARSON SATANISM SYMPOSIUM NOV. 4, 1989 Number of Attendees -
From: Rowan Moonstone
Subject: Larson Symposium
BOB LARSON SATANISM SYMPOSIUM NOV. 4, 1989
Number of Attendees - Approximately 500. There were 3
sections of seats, each holding approximately 150 - 170 chairs.
Advertising had been exclusively on the Bob Larson radio talk
show for three weeks preceding the symposium and a write up in
the Denver area newspaper.
Geographic Spread of Attendees - As far as I could tell, there
was a wide spread in the geographic areas represented. I
personally observed name-tags from Arkansas, Texas, Arizona,
Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Tennessee,
Manitoba, California, and Florida.
Age Spread of Attendees - Mostly persons in their early 30's
to early 50's. The youngest attendee was around 8 and the oldest
that I saw were Larson's parents who are both in their 80's.
There was a liberal sprinkling of teens as well.
Atmosphere - Not nearly as rabid as I had expected. Most of
the people were highly ignorant, and were swallowing the Larson
party line 110%. I did talk to some skeptics later, though.
Approximately 1/3 of the audience was police personnel, according
to Larson. The symposium was offered free of charge to one
member of each police force in attendance, as well as to one
member of the clergy from each church represented. The most
vocal and vehement representatives were a couple of cops from the
south Texas area. Both of these guys, one Hispanic and one black
gave lengthy "preachy" speeches about how the forces of Christ
would win out over the forces of evil.
CWR arrived about 10 minutes late and seated ourselves in the
back of the room. Bob Larson was giving the welcome speech to
the people. According to Larson, there are only 3 world views.
The first is the Judeo-Christian view that believes in a
personal God and a personal devil. The second is the Secular
Humanist view. Secular Humanists, according to Larson, believe
that evil is the absence of good, and that the devil is an
archetypical myth. Their view might be best summed up by saying
that "evil is the presence of what happens when good men do
The last world view is that of the Satanist. Larson divided
this group into various sub-groups.
1. Dabblers - believe that the devil is a
"convenient excuse to explore curiosity"
2. Self-styled - use the devil as a
rationale for antisocial behavior.
3. Generational - use the devil as a
philosophical validation for ritual abuse
4. Religious - the devil is an excuse for
He says that Satan's greatest weapon is the silence of the
Christian community, the law enforcement community, educators,
political leaders, preachers, and teachers.
Jones began by saying that this was one of the largest
audiences that he had attended for quite a while. He said that
he had developed CCIN to provide training information to law
enforcement and to develope resources for the media, education,
mental health, and churches. In reference to sAtanism, he said,"
It's happening right in your own living room." and went on to
reference the children's cartoons (a la Phil Phillips)F and
horror films as proof of this statement.
Jones claims to be an 18 year veteran of the Boise P.D. His
father is a mortician, and at least two other members of the
Boise P.D. ,( a night patrol officer and the property room
manager ) are on the Board of Directors of CCIN.
Jones outlined his reasons for believing the outrageous
statistics of 50,000 - 60,000 human sacrifices a year. He's
taking runaway statistics of 2.5 million. He also claims that
many children who disappear are NOT taken by non-custodial
parents, but are nabbed by ,"pedophiles, satanist cults, and
He also cites large numbers of people he refers to as
"untraceable." By this, he means the criminal element (drug
dealers, prostitutes, etc.)and transients (the senile, the
homeless and the "street people"). He terms this the
The second set of statistics he relies on was collected by Dr.
Al Carlisle of the Utah State Penitentiary System in 1985.
Carlisle questioned inmates about involvement in human sacrifice
cults. The figures he arrived at were 50,000 to 60,000 human
sacrifices a year. He arrived at this figure by taking the
number of alleged cults and multiplying it by the number of
alleged sacrifices per year per cult and arrived at his
conclusion. When asked where the bodies were, he says they are
disposed of in many ways, including:
1. Eaten and the bones used for ritual
implements (With the exception of Matamoros,
I know of NO incidents where ritual
implements have been found constructed of
human bones and/or skin.)
2. Fed to animals such as hogs or dogs.(Hogs
and dogs don't consume bones.)
3. Buried (Despite numerous claims by both
children and adult "survivors", and much
digging, no bodies have yet been found.)
4. Dumped at sea. (Certainly believable for
those who live near an ocean. However, one
clipping in the CWR files has a kid in El
Paso Texas saying he witnessed a murder and
the body was taken out to sea and dumped.
It's a LONG way from El Paso to the ocean.)
5. Dumped down abandoned mine
shafts.(Certainly a possibility)
6. Burned and the ashes saved. (The old myth
of the "portable crematorium.)
According to Larson, "Satanism is an outlet for problems the
individual is unable to cope with." He thinks the general public
and Christians in specific need knowledge and tools to work with
on this problem.
He then quotes Ken Lanning as saying that the FBI only has
statistics on 20,000 murders a year and said, "This controversy
over statistics is making me ill." He characterizes Lanning as
having a "bureaucratic mentality" and says that no area wants to
be known as the area that has Satanic crimes. He thinks
Lanning's quotes that if this was going on it was the greatest
conspiracy in the history of the human race is a correct and
accurate quote. He genuinely BELIEVES that it is the world's
greatest conspiracy. He spoke of such things as red herrings
being perpetrated to try to discredit the statistics, and of
networking among the detractors.
He mentioned that there is even a newsletter called "Cult
Watch Response" which comes out about 2 weeks after File 18. He
sees the statistics as being manipulated in any desired way by
the statisticians and says that things will not be satisfactory
until,"we get to the point where every uniformed officer is
trained to the point where they can legitimately identify Satanic
involvement and there is a system in place to handle it."
He then spoke of some actual cases in File 18 and told the
audience to push for corroborative evidence, and if they had
someone coming out of one of these cults, to try to get them out
with evidence. Jones says that Satanic cults are based on power,
control, and revenge.
Speaking of his definition of a Satanist, he said," Satanism-
people worshipping a deity other than the God of the Bible,"
and commented that in the occult,"all roads lead to the middle."
He then said,"We're not trying to cram the Bible down everybody's
However, according to Jones,"subtle New Age" philosophies in
music and the schools are making the children more susceptible to
Satanism. Eventually, he says, the worship of Satan requires
blood, either one's own, the blood of an animal, or the blood of
a human victim. The type of death must be prolonged and painful.
constitutional protection if there is a crime committed during
the practice of the religion. According to Jones,"you cannot be
a dedicated Satanist without violating the law of the land."
(Combined with his earlier definition of a Satanist, it now
appears that all non-Christians are criminals.) Jones listed
several crimes as good suggestions for obtaining search warrants
and/or arrests on various "occult groups" including ritual sex
with juveniles, ritual abuse, drug use, and animal cruelty. He
suggested many ways in which officers could be on the lookout for
these crimes. Jones claims that Satanists have bragged openly of
their ability to commit capital crimes without being caught.
Opponents of the Carlisle theory, according to Jones, state
that if there is no statistical data base, there is no problem.
He, on the other hand, believes that if there is no awareness,
there are no reports. Lack of reports means no statistics. He
advised people to keep reporting incidents until there is a data
base built up.
Supposedly, there has been a study conducted by the Adam Walsh
Center which seeks correlation between abduction dates and
"occult holidays." Jones maintains that of the first 40 cases
reported to the Center, 30 of them had correlating dates with two
holidays. He declined to specify which two. Paul Sullin with
POWSIG has talked to the Walsh Center, which he's worked with in
the past, and the woman who was compiling g the statistics no
longer works there, and they know nothing about the study she was
conducting, as she took all her data with her when she left.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Q. (Bob Larson) What can the average person
do with this information?
A. Maintain a healthy skepticism. Back the
stories with facts. Self-education. He
recommended videotapes particularly
"America's Best Kept Secret" as a way to do
this. He also advised people "don't try to
generate things" and be willing to admit that
their kids might be involved.
Q. (Female attendee, Task Force on Occult
Crime from East Tennessee) Why are reports
with evidence not made public? Is there a
suppression of evidence?
A. "You're talking conspiracy theory here."
Jones then refused to get involved with that
concept citing, instead, the resistance a
community might have to bad publicity. He
touched on what he called the "credibility
wars" between "experts."
Q. (Larson) What about accusations that the
police in communities are involved with the
A. (Jones) Jones related that he knew that
some of the police were involved with cults
because the File 18 mailing list ended up in
the hands of Witches, and posted on some
Wiccan computer BBS's. Again, the
implication here is that only Christian cops
are to be trusted.
Q. Rev. Stanton, (Jake, Texas) How do you
handle skepticism from the public?
A. (Jones) Press for corroborative evidence
and pray that the Lord will expose it.
Q. Craig (California) How do you bring this
information to the churches?
A. (Jones) Point out examples on videotape.
I recommend "America's Best Kept Secret" as a
good reference. Remember, it's spiritual
Q. Rebecca (Tampa, Fl former cultist) What do
you do about what you know?
A. (Jones) Fear is the most used tool of
Satanists. Write your experiences down in a
journal and document it with photos.
Q. (Couldn't hear the name) Remarked on
rumors about Satanic activity in Manitou
Springs, which is a suburb of COS. (I've
heard these rumors for years and have been
unable to substantiate them. Others in this
area that I have talked to about the Manitou
area have indicated that they have also been
unable to substantiate the rumors. It should
be noted that Manitou Springs is a tiny
tourist town, and any unusual activity is
likely to be noticed by the neighbors. There
are, however, several outlying houses back in
the hills which are relatively isolated from
the main town goings-on. It is possible, but
I think highly unlikely that something
sinister is going on there.
Q. Cindy (Cincinnati) This lady indicated
that she has a friend who was involved with
some form of Satanism, and that she had read
Maury Terry's book " The Ultimate Evil". She
also commented on the "fear factor" which is
used by destructive cults.
A. Jones - "Satanists use fear as a tool.
Collect as much documentation as you can and
keep it under lock and key." He also
suggested making it known to the public at
large that such documentation exists, and
that it would be made public in the event of
anything untoward happening to the person
that collected it. Jones suggested that
persons holding such information have private
meetings with the police.
Q. Pam (Dallas, TX) What about rumors such as
cults attempting to kidnap children? How can
individuals approach the police? She went on
to indicate that when she had contacted the
Dallas police about the standard rumors that
cults were seeking to kidnap area children as
possible human sacrifices, the police had not
treated it in a serious manner, and had
indicated to her that the whole thing was
hysteria from a misinformed public. She was
quite upset by this attitude.
A. Jones- Before you meet with the police,
have your facts in order. Follow the chain
of command and document everything.
Larson - Your publicity is your protection.
Jones is VERY upset about three points:
1. He's still highly peeved that the "File
18" mailing list was made public.
Apparently, it had never occurred to him that
policeman and women could also be Witches and
2. He's very concerned that many of the
so-called "Experts" such as "Dr." Rebecca
Brown and Pat Pulling are now having their
credentials and credibility called into
serious question, with some really
outstanding results. His comment about the
war of credibility making him ill is ample
evidence of his concern on this issue.
3. The final concern that he seems to have
is that his experts have no hard evidence
with which to document his claims.
Over and over he emphasized to the audience the importance of
documentation and corroborative evidence. We at WIN and CWR and
other organizations have finally pushed home our point on this
issue. The only concern that I have is that someone may get
over-anxious and MANUFACTURE the evidence to support the claims
of international conspiracies and ritual abuse.
After his lecture, I went up and eavesdropped on Jones'
conversations with many people. About the only useful thing I
overheard was a conversation between him and some folks who
wanted to subscribe to "File 18". His reply to them was to get
into a working relationship with a cop they trusted who could
subscribe and pass the information on to them. He remarked that
he had had many reporters contact him and say they'd really like
to be on his mailing list. His comment on that was ,"Yeah, I'll
just bet they would."
During lunch break, we introduced ourselves to Mr. Jones.
His reply, after picking up his jaw from the floor was, "Ah, the
Loyal Opposition showed up." My answer to that was,"You bet.
You don't think I'm gonna let you get this close and not hear
what you have to say, do you?" Jones said,"Well, we told folks
that if they didn't like what we were printing then print their
own newsletter. CWR's answer to that was,"Yep, and we took you
up on the challenge. By the way, thanks for the free publicity.
We can use it." Jones looked ill. When asked about the
C.H.R.I.S.T. letters, Jones replied that although they had been
attributed to CCIN by many folks, his organization had nothing to
do with them. He held the position that CCIN did NOT advocate
violence in any form. I told him we were pleased to hear it.
Roper supposedly began his studies with Silva Mind Control and
went on into study of Hatha Yoga. He researched demonology and
then later became a Born Again Christian.
He now claims to work with the DEA in Miami and claims that
there is a large connection between drug runners, voodoo, and
Witchcraft. His information on Afro-Caribbean religions is
fairly accurate. He's working with Rafael Martinez and Charles
Wetli of the Dade County Medical Examiner's office and they are
some of the REAL experts in this matter. He also claims to have
worked with the Mid-West Gang Investigation Association and with
the parents of the McMartin pre-school children.
Among the sources of information that he recommends are the
Sept. 1989 issue of the Minnesota Police Chief Magazine. (Can
someone get us a copy of this?) Also Tom Wedge's book The Satan
Hunter. Wedge's book , while it is not nearly as bad as it might
be, is more than sufficiently bad to warrant alarm at anyone who
would recommend it as serious research material.
Most of Roper's presentation consisted of slides and clips
from videos on rock music and children's cartoons and horror
flicks. He dwelt extensively on the various alphabets used by
supposedly destructive cults, totally ignoring the fact that if
the graffiti is any indication, most of the adolescents who
become involved with Satanism can't even spell in ENGLISH, let
alone in some strange, archaic alphabet. Some of the unusual
alphabets he showed even included shorthand and braille. (I
wonder if he's saying that blind people and secretaries are
really Satanists?) He also indicated that children from
ritualistic child abuse cases are now using sign language .
(Possible indications that hearing impaired folks are also
involved with the cults?)
Among the drawings he exhibited, was one he claims was done by
a fourth grade kid. This may have been true, but if it was, the
kid copied it our of a coloring book published by Troubador Press
of San Francisco, and under copyright.
Roper did have the eight Sabbats down correctly, and I saw no
indication that he is in agreement with David Balsinger's
According to Roper, the key theme in Satanism is power, and
the common elements are secrecy, eclectic practices, and self-
gratification and indulgence.
He showed a film clip from an episode of "Friday the 13th, the
T.V. Show" to illustrate how kids come by some of their ideas.
The next section was devoted to slides from a warehouse called
"Worldwide Imports" in North Hollywood, CA. This warehouse
specializes in "occult" materials. I have a catalogue from them
in my files. He showed slides of robes, candles, amulets, books,
etc. According to Roper, Witches and Satanists have different
intent, but the source of the power is the same.
He also showed slides from a Fantasy Role Playing Convention
which had such things as horror masks and pewter figurines for
sale. Roper implied that such conventions were a good source of
supply for Satanic Cults.
Among the books recommended by him were The Ultimate Evil by
Maury Terry,The Satan Hunter by Tom Wedge, Cults That Kill by
Larry Kahaner, Satanism, the Seduction of America's Youth by Bob
Larson, Like Lambs to the Slaughter and The Beautiful Side of
Evil by Johanna Michaelson, The Devil's Web by Pat Pulling, The
Edge of Evil by Jerry Johnston, a volume on the history of human
sacrifice by Neville Drury, and William Bainbridge's Satan's
Power on the Process Church of the Final Judgment.
Other books shown in slides were The 6th and 7th Books of
Moses, The Book of the Beast, The Dictionary of Angels, The Black
Arts by Richard Cavendish, The Book of Ceremonial Magick by Dr.
Israel Regardie, and various comic books.
He talked about Aleister Crowley and said that Crowley's books
were filled with desecration of the Christian religion. He
related how he had received a letter from an OTO leader in
Berkeley who was unhappy with many of the things he was stating
and who had supposedly written to him, "Satan is an angel in good
standing." He alleges that the OTO publishes a newsletter called
"The Cloven Hoof" (which in fact is, or WAS, published by La
Vey's Church of Satan). In the class of organized Satanists, he
also included Dr. Michael Aquino, Charles Manson, and the
Roper next showed a newsclip of what he purported was a ritual
Roper next showed a film clip of what he claimed was a child
abuse cult. In fact, this was an early Florida newscast on the
Finders. Later news stories reported that the Finders were not
in any was Satanic, and the children who were removed from
custody were returned to the care of their mothers.
The next filmclip was from the film "Ghoulies" and was an
attempt to illustrate infant sacrifice. This film, for those who
haven't had it inflicted on you, has actual excerpts from the
Gardnerian Book of Shadows, namely, the Circle casting, used out
of context and in an entirely inappropriate manner. Check it out
from your video rental store and see what I mean.
Roper states that ritual child abuse includes isolation,
sexual abuse, death threats, brainwashing, blackmail and
desecration. He recommends the video "America's Best Kept
Secret" as a valuable teaching tool. He claims that animal
mutilations and thrill killings also are evidence of widespread
The next piece of "evidence" was a dramatic reading done by
Vincent Price. The piece concerned an ancient formula for
summoning the devil, and Price did an admirable job with it.
Roper claims that this proves that Price is a Satanist and a
Demonologist. ( I always thought he was an ACTOR!!. Silly me.)
The last section of Roper's presentation consisted of clips
from various rock songs and videos, mostly garnered for shock
value. The sound quality was so poor on most of the songs that I
couldn't make our a word that was being said.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Q. Larson - Are adults reaching our to kids?
A. Roper - Yes. The kids are being
desensitized by heavy metal music and horror
Q. Doug- Aimes, Iowa P.D. - Whenever we
present a program to a high school or church,
we find that the programs just incite
curiosity and get more kids involved than
were involved previously. Bookstores
indicate that sales of the Satanic Bible
increase after one of the presentations.
A. Roper - Be sensitive to the kids and
understand their sub- culture. Many of the
kids today are turned away by the churches.
Jones - There has to be a balance between
information and inciting curiosity. The
information should come from the parents.
They are the ones we should be educating.
The family is being destroyed. Educate the
Larson - You have to take into account
motive, environment, and structure. Our
culture is pervaded with the occult and too
many people are poo-pooing the problem,
sensationalizing it and inciting curiosity.
Q. Rev. Rich Faste, Flint, MI - Have you had
a problem with researching the occult? Is
there a danger? What is the difference
between high level and low level Satanists?
A. Roper - That depends on the maturity level
of the person.
Larson - What are the terms for the different
levels of Satanists in the hierarchy?
Roper - Experimental - Dabbler
Self - styled - ie, Richard Ramirez, "The
Traditional - ie, La Vey & Acquino
Generational - organized and networking
He also recommended a booklet entitled Ritual
Crimes in America by Pat Pulling and
available from BADD. I looked at his copy of
this book, and it is composed of news
clippings on accounts of ritualistic/Satanic
crimes. I intend to send off for this ASAP.
He also mentioned a Wicca baby dedication
held in Wisconsin.
Q. Angela Murphy, Teen Challenge, Omaha, NE -
This woman claimed that she had interviewed 2
children from a Satanist family, and the kids
said that they had to murder a human being
before they reached the age of 2 years. The
kids claimed that they had been given dolls
to practice on and that they were trained
with guns and knives. Ms. Murphy claimed
that these children had been removed from the
home by the authorities.
A. Roper commented on the need to be watchful
for that he called "victim impersonators" who
had no evidence, relatives who didn't know
what was going on, and time gaps in their
Q. Norman, San Diego, CA - He related a
couple of run-ins with supposed Satanists,
including one young skateboarder who had
responded to Norman's shouts to get out of
the street by bashing him in the nose and
saying "I live for Satan" before skating off
down the street.
A. Roper related that you must evaluate the
history and background of these kids. Most
are rebelling against their families, and
love is a critical ingredient in dealing with
them. In dealing with Witches and Satanists,
you must use logical, loving arguments.
Q. (couldn't hear the name) L.A. Calif - What
about backward masking?
A. Roper - Back masking is very
controversial. He recommends a video called
"Satanism, Witchcraft, the Occult, What every
teen must know." by Awakening Productions of
Denver. The video is distributed by Brown
Publishing - ROA Media, 2460 Kerper Blvd.
Dubuque, Iowa, 1-800-922-7696
During the lunch break , we also introduced ourselves to Bob
Larson. He insisted that we move from our places in the rear of
the room to the front row. I suspect that he just wanted to keep
an eye on us. He had us seated right next to Jack Roper and
Larry Jones. Roper was cool, but Jones was obviously
uncomfortable with the arrangement and about 1/2 hour into the
afternoon discussion with the teen panel of Satanists, he got up
and stood in the back of the room, leaning against the wall.
The teen panel consisted of 5 kids live and Sean Sellers via
phone hookup from McAllister Prison in Oklahoma. The panel was
composed of Sally, who was a supposed ritual abuse survivor,
Laurie who had studied various branches of Metaphysics, including
Wicca, Dragon, a Heavy Metal street preacher and former white
supremacist gang member, Jay, a Satanic High Priest and Jeff, who
had recently been initiated into Satanism at Samhain.
Sally spoke first. She was supposedly a member of a family
that had been involved with Satanism for 28 generations since the
15th century. Her earliest memory is around the age of 5 when a
rabbit was killed in her presence and she was told not to talk
about it. She says it was her father's family that was involved
with this, and her mother got her out of it, although her brother
is still involved. She claims to have seen her first human
sacrifice when she was 12 years old and to have witnessed over a
dozen more in her years as a member of the cult. She claims that
she didn't go to the police because 80% of the police in her town
were involved with the cult. Incest is supposedly a big part of
the practices of the group. she claims to have been impregnated
by her father, but says that she lost the child in something that
was a sacrifice to Satan "in a way." She claims that victims
don't get out with evidence. Supposedly, one of the leaders in
the group showed her a computer printout of a listing of
"keymasters" who made up a computer network of cultists. She
says this printout stretched the length of the room.
Laurie says she used to be a "white witch" although she is not
currently practicing. She uses crystals, tarot cards and various
other tools that the Christians deem part of the "occult". She
says she has many friends who are Wiccan, but that she herself is
leaning more back towards her Catholic roots. She has studied
many religions and says that her knowledge is a weapon against
fear and ignorance.
Mike or "Dragon" as he prefers to be called, is involved with
promoting of Christian Heavy Metal music. He used to have the
idea that "Christians are wimps". His dad's job took the family
to Afghanistan and there he saw a lot of other religions. He was
angry with his Mom because she was a strict disciplinarian and
spanked him naked in the yard in front of his friends as a child.
Having no way to deal with the emotional abuse, he turned to KKK
groups for companionship. His dad was an alcoholic and he had
friends involved with the occult. He didn't relate how he got
Jay was a well-spoken, well-dressed 19 year old from Colorado
Springs. His opening comments were," I'm not a cat killing Satan
worshipper." He is an ex-Lutheran who feels that "God failed me.
He showed me nothing." He says that Satanism gives him peace of
mind. When asked "How can Satanism resolve anger?" his reply was
"by not building up a pipe dream." "What do you do for the
Devil?" Larson asked him. Jay replied that he performs
ceremonies and rituals.
In reference to Sean Sellers, Jay commented that he thought
Sellers was mentally disturbed.
Q: Larson j- "What assurances do we have living near you that
the evil powers wouldn't make you slip over the edge?"
A: Jay - "Because I don't have a brain disorder. I'm not
Jeff is a 19-year-old who was initiated into Satanism on
Samhain of this year. He opened his segment by saying," Except
for religious views, I am a normal person. I'm not a leper. I'm
a normal human being. You can come and talk to me."
Larson tried to get him to say that during his initiation that
blood was used, but Jeff maintained that it was a mixture of
Bacardi and Mt. Dew in the chalice. Larson and the audience did
not believe this for a minute.
Q: Larson - As a Satanist, who do you invoke?"
A: Jeff - "The 4 powers of Hell."
q: Larson - "Why do you do this?"
A: Jeff - "I wanted to be totally committed to my religion. I
now feel better about myself."
Q: Larson speaking to Sean Sellers via satellite hook-up -
"Sean, did you hear the suggestion that you're crazy?"
A: Sellers - "Yes."
Q: Larson - "And are you?"
A: Sellers - "No."
Q: Jay - "Were you."
A: Sellers - "Maybe. I don't think so."
At this point Larson motioned for the CWR people to come to
the microphone. He began by making snide references to the fact
that we were sort of an "anti defamation for the Witches." I
replied by stating that that was exactly right. We were the BOD
of Cult Watch Response, which Det. Jones had mentioned earlier,
and that I was the area co-ordinator for the Wiccan Information
Network and Gerald was the area co-ordinator for the Wiccan
Anti-Defamation League. Larson seemed a bit taken aback that his
intended joke turned out to be more true than he knew. He asked
us what we were doing there and we replied that we had come to
see what was being said and to tell people what Witches were
REALLY about. He wanted to know what kind of mis-information
that I thought he was spreading and I told him that we didn't
murder babies and hold wild orgies and that he darn well knew it,
and he agreed. We chatted a bit more and finally agreed to
disagree theologically. He wanted to know if we had any parting
words, and we told him that the audience had no idea of the kind
of courage it took to stand in front of an audience of 500 people
who thought we were after their kids and tell them that we were
not what they thought we were. He gave me a big hug and we
returned to our seats. The audience was visibly shaken.
Questions and Answers:
Q: Eddie Unknown location) to Laurie - "You say knowledge is
your weapon. Do you find anything subversive in the Bible?"
A: Laurie - "I have found instances of human sacrifice in the
Q: (couldn't hear the name or location) - What about moral
values. Do you set them yourselves? If so, if society changes,
do your values change?"
A: Jay - "Possibly yes, possibly no, it depends."
Q: Larson - "Is there anything that you believe is always
A: Jay - "Yes, rape. I don't think there's ever a time when
Q: Police detective from Loveland to the Satanists - This was
a statement that he thought the Satanists were being wishy-washy.
He was a black man, and was quite vehement in his viewpoints,
often shouting at the kids.
Q: Larson to Jay - "Did you call upon the devil before you
came here today?"
A: Jay - "I called upon myself."
Sally - "Anton La Vey did not start Satanism."
Also, in the course of my conversation with Larson, he had
mentioned that these kids were not following La Vey because they
claimed not to do certain things outlined in The Satanic Bible..
I pointed out to Larson, that just because La Vey said it, didn't
make it true.
After the main seminar, Sally and her mother were going to
have a private session with the law enforcement officers present.
Following this discussion, there was a break. CWR was, as
expected, deluged with curious people who wanted to talk to the
Witches, or who wanted to save our souls. We handed out a LOT of
business cards and "Origins of Halloween" pamphlets to folks.
Among the questions that I can remember are the following:
A lovely blonde lady from Texas said that her mother was a
white Witch. She asked: "Now, you consider yourself a white
"No. There is no such thing as a black or white Witch.
Witches are Witches. Period."
She then tried to get me to read Biblical passages concerning
Witches. I told her I didn't believe it. She asked me why I was
a Witch and I told her that Christianity didn't meet my spiritual
"Do you do out of body travel?"
"Do you use numerology?"
"No. I've looked at it a bit, but I don't actively u se it."
"Do you do trance channeling?"
"No. I think it's a bunch of New Age hype."
"Do you worship Pan?"
"No ma'am. I worship a Celtic pantheon. Pan is Greek."
"Well then what do you do that makes you a Witch?"
"I am a priestess of the Goddess and THAT makes me a Witch."
This lady never did understand that Wicca is a religion, just
as Christianity is a religion.
Two young men from Eugene Oregon talked to me. They started
out with : "OK. You believe that our religion is wrong, right?"
"Wrong. I believe it is wrong for ME. It's perfectly fine for
"That's a pat answer. You believe it's wrong. If yours is
right, ours has to be wrong."
"Not at all. You seem perfectly satisfied with your religion.
It's right for you. It's wrong for me." They never did seem to
understand and seemed shocked when I wished them a safe and
pleasant journey home.
A young man in a "Jesus Saves" tee shirt accosted me by
beginning, "you call on your demonic powers and I'll call on my
Jesus and we both know who'll win."
I looked puzzled and told him," But I have absolutely no
desire to be confrontational with you." Now HE looked puzzled
and said, "Well, I just wanted you to know Jesus loves you and I
love you too." I smiled and thanked him. Now he REALLY looked
One lady came up and asked me about the necklace I was
wearing. It is a lovely sting of moonstones given to me by my
former HP. I told her they were moonstones. I had worn them to
remind me to conduct myself as a HPS and not to get carried away.
"What do they do"?
"They're pretty rocks. I like pretty rocks."
I know she expected me to state that they housed the spirit of
my dead Grandmother or something. It was really awfully funny.
A couple of cops spoke to us and asked us if they could call
us if they had any need of "occult crime experts." We were
delighted and said YES!!! They also run a ministry, but say that
they don't buy everything that's told to them by Jones & co. One
Christian minister stated that he had bought 10 different
pamphlets on the occult from different ministries and complained
that they all said something different. He also bemoaned the
lack of documentation. He said that he had finally given up and
read some of the Wiccan material. He was very glad to get the
"Origins of Halloween" pamphlet with its documentation.
The final session of the day was taken up with small 15 minute
segments of recap and wrap up. Roper gave a presentation of
Santeria that was surprisingly accurate. He presented a film by
Charles Wetli, of the Dade County Medical Examiner's office which
was excellent. Wetli is recognized as a genuine authority on
Afro- Caribbean religions.
According to Wetli, there was a great increase in Santeria
with the Marielle boatlift in 1980. He gave an excellent
presentation of the construction, use, and destruction of the
Nganga, or cauldron used in Palo Mayombe.
Roper states that black magick and adultery are significant
traits of the Afro-Caribbean belief systems. He showed several
slides of evidences gathered from various crime scenes in the
Miami area, including chicken feathers and a 6" coffin obtained
from Mt. Nebo cemetery in Miami.
Larry Jones wrapped up his presentation by re emphasizing the
importance of Passport magazine. He also praises Maureen Davies
of "Reachout Trust" in North Wales.
He spoke derisively of Arthur Lyons' allegation that the
Satanic conspiracy theory was an urban myth and claimed that the
DEA drug education manual mentions Satanism.
Jones alleges that the occult promises instant power and
gratification. He lists signs of occult involvement as :
Loss of a sense of humor.
Change in personal countenance & clothing to dark colors.
Preoccupation with hopelessness and death themes in artwork.
He recommended Believe the Children as a good source of books
and literature on Satanic Ritual Abuse.
D&D is seen as a "crash course in sorcery" and further signs
of involvement are :
Overindulgence in metal music.
Drug and alcohol abuse.
Secretive & reclusive behavior.
Drugs are seen as a recruiting factor because they deaden the
senses, lend themselves to mind control and generate funds.
He maintains that high level people are part of a "Satanist
E-Mail Fredric L. Rice / The Skeptic Tank