[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/3/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/3/96 [17:02] ProfG
[ref001]
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/3/96
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/3/96
[17:02] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial95.fiu.edu) joined #apologetics.
[17:13] skulls (wonners@206.84.28.104) joined #apologetics.
[17:14] hi skulls
[17:15] hello
[17:15] how are you today?
[17:15] feeling alright, you?
[17:16] pretty good :-)
[17:16] apologetics?
[17:16] yes
[17:16] apologia = Greek "defence"
[17:16] apologetics = defence of the Faith
[17:17] what faith is being defended here?
[17:17] Christianity
[17:17] what is your paradigm, skulls?
[17:18] christianity is not my thing
[17:18] that is interesting. what is your "thing"?
[17:19] I don't follow anything spiritual
[17:19] skulls: do you believe that only the
material exists?
[17:19] hapi (ssparaci@medea.gp.usm.edu) joined #Apologetics.
[17:19] hi hapi
[17:19] no
[17:19] hello :)
[17:19] so what exists besides the material,
skulls?
[17:21] so what exists besides the material,
skulls?
[17:21] so what exists besides the material,
skulls?
[17:21] no, flooding....ok? ;)
[17:21] ops can flood here, hapi LOL
[17:22] I believe that there could be a non-physical
plane
[17:22] hehehehe :)
[17:22] skulls: what is your proof?
[17:22] sounds like pergatory...
[17:22] I said could
[17:22] howeveryoudecidetospellthat :)
[17:22] yes, what is your proof that it *could*
[17:22] what makes you believe that, in other
words
[17:23] I just don't believe in a god that controls
out lives
[17:23] He doesn't control :)
[17:23] skulls: that is a pronouncement, not
proof of anything. WHY do you believe that?
[17:24] because there has been no proof
[17:24] skull, how doyou know gravity exists?
[17:24] How do you know wind exists?
[17:24] what about air?
[17:24] Mode change '+o hapi ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu
[17:25] skulls: there is plenty of proof, but
you reject transcendental proof due to your presuppositions,
not because it is not good proof
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to #Apologetics
[17:25] oi, Prof...you're lagged, guy :)
[17:25] skulls: "I don't believe the Bible, so
I don't believe any proof that the Bible is true"
[17:25] I am?
[17:26] 825891881 seconds ;0
[17:26] :)
[17:26] heheheh
[17:26] skulls (wonners@206.84.28.104) left irc: sorry,
not interested
[17:26] ;)
[17:26] lamer
[17:26] yup
-------------------------------------
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#apologetics.
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[21:17] lo
[21:17] ProfG (wgreen01@131.94.2.116) joined #apologetics.
[21:17] hi
[21:18] hiya :-)
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#apologetics.
[21:18] bullo
[21:18] hi black
[21:18] Judith (Sandra@dial091.skypoint.net) joined
#apologetics.
[21:18] hullo I mean
[21:18] hey there
[21:18] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu
[21:19] blackkat now about homosexuality, why
do you think it is genetic?
[21:20] Action: Alcuin notes that judith was correct
to point out that the issue of whether or not a behavior
is genetically determined is logically distinct from
the ethical evaluation of that behavior
[21:20] thanks
[21:20] brain differences have been found
in the brains of straight and gay men, as well as chomosome
differences amoung gay, lesbain and straight people.
[21:20] true
[21:20] ;)
[21:20] ?me notes that Judith was not the ONLY
one to point that out. :P
[21:20] blackkat so that means what?
[21:20] tip o' sham to Acolyte
[21:20] blackkat differences mean what?
[21:20] heh
[21:20] sham=tam
[21:21] Judith is incorrect in assuming genetic
tendencies are automatically bad, such as linking gayness
to being addicted to alcohol.
[21:21] black, i didn't assume that, you did.
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#apologetics.
[21:21] balckkat she assume dno such thing,
she merely pointed out tha they are NOT ipso facto
good either
[21:21] hi po
[21:21] blackkat differences mean what?
[21:21] Acolyte, sexual behaviour is regulated
in the hypothalmus...
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[21:21] i was merely making ht epoint that genetic
tendencies don't justify behavior
[21:21] balckat what do the differnce mean?
[21:21] ok so?
[21:21] blackat so the differences were there
whenthey were born?
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#apologetics.
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#apologetics.
[21:22] acolyte, it isnt going to mean anything
to you.
[21:22] hello all
[21:22] You are poised to shoot it down.
[21:22] hiya anselm
[21:22] blackkat: the issue is not that gayness
is bad because of the status of an ad hoc analog. The
issue is that whether or not a behavior is bad is determined
biblically, and acoholism and gayness both happen to
fail to make the cut.
[21:22] blackkat wellperhaps if you tell me
it might
[21:22] Hello
[21:22] You are not interested to educate
yourself.
[21:22] blackkat how do you know that?
[21:22] black, someone is not lacking in education
when they disagree with you.
[21:22] blackkat don't insult me ok.
[21:22] Acolyte & alcuin, you uneducated dolts
[21:22] Can we avoid perjoratives and judgments,
please?
[21:22] black if you wish to dialog DON"T INSULT
[21:22] The size of this area of the brain
helps to determine sexual behaviour.
[21:22] ;->
[21:22] ProfG: :)
[21:22] lol
[21:22] black ok
[21:22] they merely disagree. there is no need
to insult a person's intelligence and assault their
character
[21:23] Acolye, how did i unsult you? Come
on, toughen your hide.
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[21:23] black so, was the difference there
whent hey were born or after?
[21:23] acolyte, how did i insult you?????
[21:23] Blackkat: Does this cerebral structure
determine the behavior of a homosexual 100%?
[21:23] black saying I don't want to learn
is an insult and attacking me personally and not dealing
with the topic
[21:23] black so, was the difference there
whent hey were born or after?
[21:23] hi stevve
[21:24] hello!
[21:24] Action: Alcuin hands Acolyte a moist towelette
"here, your keyboard is dripping...." ;)
[21:24] acolyte, i do highly doubt your interest
in learning as you go by what the bible says and nothing
else.
[21:24] The research I've read suggests that there
is a genetic component to male homosexuality, but that
it is not controlling.
[21:24] blackkat oh well thats nice of you
to read my mind
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#apologetics.
[21:24] BlackKat, you're saying that one cannot
be intellectually rigorous and believe the Bible. I
don't agree at all.
[21:24] Balckat 1. I am not a Protestant. 2
I go by Tradition adn Reason as well.
[21:24] hi
[21:25] Acolyte, the hypothalmus is found
to be consistanly smaller in gay males, in realtion
to straight. This size also happens to coincide with
the size of females.
[21:25] black, i could apply that to your exclusion
of eveyrthing but an unstable scientific community
[21:25] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu:
Homosexuality: wrong in more ways than one...
[21:25] Hi MacB, welcome to apologetics!
[21:25] hi mac
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[21:25] blackkat ok, THAT I know, but was the
difference there BEFORE they were born or after?
[21:25] You see, blackkat, if the genetic *predisposition*
to behave homosexually is only a predisposition, then
it follows that any specific homosexual *act* is partially
determined by the actor's volition. Hence, the behavior
is suscep
tible to ethical evaluation as choice.
[21:25] before.
[21:25] it develops in utero.
[21:25] Blackkat how do you know that?
[21:25] Black what study has shown that to
be the case?
[21:25] Alcuin, are you straight?
[21:26] Acolyte, i should have made a copy
of it, as it appeared in the newspaper a few years
ago.
[21:26] Black that is irrelevant as I know
ppl who are gay that think you are wrong as well
[21:26] It was quite interesting.
[21:26] To me, the gospel is essentially about
unconditional love & all else is irrelevant.
[21:26] black I know what it says, I have read
a number of studys on the topic
[21:26] That's how I approach the gay "issue"
[21:26] blackkat: my sexual orientation is not
relevant to the objective validity of my argument.
[21:26] ANselm a Cosmic Hallmakr Card eh?
[21:26] just read a 3 page spread in seattle times
about the genetic disposition of homosexuality by a
non - christian - according to the article there is
none and the original postulator of that idea has admitted
that to be now correct
[21:26] Hallmark even
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[21:27] Alcuin, it is very relevant. What
is the answer?
[21:27] Black what study has shown that to
be the case?
[21:27] zx, who's the author of that? I'd like ot
read it.
[21:27] Black so they did a study on Gay fetuses?
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[21:27] these were autopsies.
[21:27] Blackkat did they do a Study on Gay
Fetuses?
[21:27] anselm: But the Father's love is not
unconditional. It is contingent upon obedience to
the law.
[21:27] Black auttopisies of Adults or fetuses?
[21:28] i will have to get the seattle times artidcle
- but listen i lie not - the original work by the originor
postulator has now disclaimed both and his original
lab work is now recognized by the scientific community
to be very flawed and
not repeatable
[21:28] Acolyte, you have to calm down and
wait a moment for me to amswer your questions..i may
be lagged, and you keep repeating yourself.
[21:28] blackkat: demonstrate the logical relevance
and then I'll supply the requested data.
[21:28] adults.
[21:28] Alcuin fortunately not OUR obediance
initially
[21:28] So much the worse for the law, Alcuin.
[21:28] black I am perfectly calm. I willwait
[21:28] I prefer to accept grace.
[21:28] alcuin, im not going to ask you a
question them sit and explain myself. Forget it.
[21:28] Infinite, mind-staggering grace.
[21:28] anselm there is no grace without the
law
[21:29] Nick change: BlackKat -> RedTango
[21:29] anselm: me too. Good thing that Jesus
fulfilled the Father's condition of perfect obedience.
[21:29] W (cservice@undernet.org) got netsplit.
[21:29] anyway goodbye - just came to say hello
:-)
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[21:29] The more interesting thing is WHY
it is considered a sin.
[21:29] black so it was adults.hhhmm so how
do they know that these adults had it when they were
fetuses?
[21:29] what a surprise, it's RT
[21:29] I would like to get your feelings
on that.
[21:29] Alcuin thats an understatement.
[21:30] anselm: " Infinite, mind-staggering grace."
Amen. Eye has not seen...
[21:30] Profg "RedTango-I do not find any lack
of Logic in Atheism particularly disturbing..." :P
[21:30] LOL
[21:30] Acolyte, when i do more reasearch,
i will give you more information. I am not going to
fill in gaps or make up things here, so i cant asnwer
too much about an article i read long ago.
[21:30] Yes, Alcuin, ergo I've had to part w/
some traditional beliefs, like eternal damnation, etc
[21:30] Redtango ok
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[21:31] RedTango: homosexual behavior is considered
a sin [a] because sin is a lack of conformity to the
Law, and [b] the Law states that homosexual behavior
is a sin.
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Ping timeout for po[all-pa1-22.ix.netcom.com]
[21:31] Red well I know what the study showed.
I read it when it came out
[21:31] Mode change '+o W ' by okc.ok.us.undernet.org
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[21:31] Acolyte, last time i was in this channel
i told you i misspoke. That sentence that you keep
repeating was an admitted mistake on my part, why do
you keep bringing it up?
[21:31] Red the study was done on 25 MALE homosexual
adutls, over 20 of which had full blown AIDS.
[21:32] Redtango because it was so juicy, sorry
I will not bring it up again.
[21:32] RedTango: That's admirable of you to
state straightforwardly that the article is not on
hand and that you only partly recall its contents.
[21:32] Alcuin, the "Law"? You mean what the
bible says.
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[21:33] RedTango: "Law"="What the bible says"----well,
I'd put it somewhat differently, but that'll do for
these purposes.
[21:33] Red the scientists did note differences
in the brain but they did not know if AIDS caused the
differences or the sexual behavior, so, they are not
sure if the differences CAUSED the behavior, OR resutled
from the behavior OR the
diseases, and dieseases
[21:33] that they died from
[21:33] Red THAT Is all ANY of the studies
have shown
[21:33] AIDS alters sexual behaviour? Now
who would ever suggest THAT?
[21:33] Redtango as to date there are no Cases
studies showing the life of a homosexual and their
development
[21:34] Redtango they don't know, that is all
I am saying
[21:34] Redtango because that is all the studies
have shown
[21:34] Action: Alcuin observes [again] that the issue
of biological determinism is irrelevant unless the
behavior is beyond volition.
[21:34] I can only go by real people i know,
and these people have told me that they knew they liked
the same sex as children, and interestingly, they all
came from the traditional family home..a mom and dad.
[21:35] Action: Acolyte notes that he is genetically
disposed to have sex with women at age 13 and up but
that is still unethical until he mARRIES one of them.
[21:35] How can AIDS be responsible for making
someone gay? Gayness isnt just a human trait, animals
are gay as well.
[21:35] RedTango: Ac's claim is that the difference
in cerebral structure could have been a result of behavior,
or a result of disease; not that the behavior resulted
from the disease.
[21:35] animals are gay, LOL
[21:35] RedTango: i.e., read his comment again
*slowly*
[21:35] Redtango, sure animals do it, are we
not more than animals?
[21:35] Prof, they certainly are.
[21:36] acolyte, we are animals.
[21:36] Redtango, a very small number of animals
are gay, as are a very small number of humans
[21:36] with huge brains.
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#apologetics.
[21:36] Redtango if we are animals then rape
is natural as is anything else we do, because we are
parts of anture
[21:36] Redtango Naturalism = Ethical Nihilism
[21:36] Where did you read any study that
suggests that AIDS actually MAKES you gay?
[21:36] Redtango I did not say that
[21:36] acolyte, everything we do, good or
bad, is natural.
[21:36] " they did not know if AIDS caused the
differences or [if] the sexual behavior [caused the
differences]".
[21:37] Red I SAID that they are not sure if
IADS caused it, contributed it or vice versa.
[21:37] alcuin, where did you read this?
[21:37] Red I JUST SAID IT
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[21:37] Red if everythng we do is natural then
NOTHING Is good or bad
[21:37] acolyte, thats why we invent laws
and bibles.
[21:37] Red: Acolyte *did* *not* *say* that
AIDS determines sexual behavior. Your are hereby challenged
to demonstrate any place where he did make that claim.
[21:38] Red so we live by myths eh? we invent
an ethics myth?
[21:38] yes
[21:38] Red so you are living a lie eh? Ethics
are an illusion?
[21:38] it isnt a lie, it is a system we create
to determine what we feel is right and wrong.
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[21:39] Red so what is the difference between
you and a fundamentalist? According to you they hold
to mythology, apparently, so do you.
[21:39] Red: the issue is what determines structural
deviance in the cerebrum, whether AIDS, behavior, or
genetics.
[21:39] W (cservice@undernet.org) returned to #apologetics.
[21:39] Red but out feelings are part of nature,
You are saying that there are NO ethics, but we make
them up, ethics are a myth, and ullusion, Make-beleive,
A lie
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[21:39] Mode change '+o W ' by okc.ok.us.undernet.org
[21:40] got quiet in here...
[21:40] po just wait a second
[21:40] ethics are real. we invent things
that become "real" and stay "real" as long as we put value
on them.
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timeout for Stevve[168.30.242.243]
[21:40] redtango but any value is a bio-chemcial
reaction, there is no real "value". It is names nothing
in reality, hence values do not exist innature
[21:40] Red what does the term "value" name in
nature?
[21:41] Red show me a value?
[21:41] does it have mass?
[21:41] Location?
[21:41] velocity?
[21:41] No
[21:41] It is a biochemcial reaction, nothing
more
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[21:41] re steve
[21:41] hi!
[21:41] Red the best you can say is that in
you NAture has X beleifs
[21:41] hmmm, so is the bible the basis of
all sexual moraity?
[21:42] Steve what do you mean?
[21:42] oops morality
[21:42] ""we invent things that become "real" and
stay "real" as long as we put value on them."" Like
the tooth fairy?
[21:42] Stevvve, I would say that God is the basis
of all morality.
[21:42] yes, i would too...
[21:42] Value is intangible, it is concept
that works because a group of people agree to it. I
dont know why you keep reducing everything down to
biochemical meaninglessness.
[21:42] God, not the Bible.
[21:42] Alcuin I prefer pink elephants.
[21:42] Steve, God's character is the basis
for all morality.
[21:42] Red so if a group of ppl agree to kill
you its fine by you?
[21:42] Alcuin, well, i think God and the
tooth fairy are very much alike.
[21:43] acolyte, to them, it is fine.
[21:43] and many countries are like that.
[21:43] red: YOUR paradigm is "reducing everything
down to biochemical meaninglessness."
[21:43] Red there is nothing in nature thatis
intangible.
[21:43] that is their values.
[21:43] you dont like those values? Move.
[21:43] Red, that's because you've never studied
Christianity seriously.
[21:43] I'm not sure why Scripture is used
to condemn homosexuality
[21:43] Red concepts are biochemical reactions
is all
[21:43] RedTango: So then, since a substantial
community under Hitler decided to kill homosexuals,
the mentally ill, and the Jewish, that's ethical for
them cuz they all agree on it?
[21:43] Red 22 million ppl moved in Germany...right
into the GAS CHAMBERS
[21:43] i mean, its not like it was understood
to be an orientation in those days
[21:44] You guys, i am hounded with questions
here. i can only deal with one at a time.
[21:44] |