[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/14/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/14/96 [04:09] Aco
[ref001]
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/14/96
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/14/96
[04:09] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) joined
#apologetics.
[04:09] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu
[04:09] Wakko_ (Conclave@s13-pm07.usc.campus.mci.net)
joined #apologetics.
[04:09] ok
[04:09] !op
[04:09] :)
[04:09] it was worth a try...
[04:09] via u wish
[04:10] I have no idea. Evolution might
provide an answer, in that a species that enjoyed killing
eachother may have some hard times in the future.
[04:10] Via, I believe that we have the ability
to identify with the pain and suffering inflicted on
others and that in itself is a minor deterent to evil
[04:10] Acolyte: :P
[04:11] wakko if you want the best book on
the topic you should get Francis Turretin's Institutes
of Elenctic Theology and MArtin Chemnitz, The Two Natures
of Christ
[04:11] Well I tell you this.. I enjoy doing
some mean things to people but refrain cause It might
hurt them... why?
[04:11] via nature disposes youto
[04:11] Could it be because you can imagine what
pain they might suffer!
[04:12] no...
[04:12] it would be fun... I just know it's
not right...
[04:12] like a pie in the face.. is that
harmful?
[04:12] no
[04:12] but it would be fun.. but evil in
a way...
[04:12] How would it be evil?
[04:12] cause it might hurt the person I
inflict
[04:12] It depends on the situation
[04:13] how would you like it if I pied your
face?
[04:13] via it all depends ont he value of
the consequent and why it is valued
[04:13] I might enjoy it, depending on the
mood.
[04:13] Wakko_ (Conclave@s13-pm07.usc.campus.mci.net)
left #apologetics.
[04:14] your correct.. but in most of my
moods I feel it would be wrong
[04:14] via what are emotions?
[04:14] I feel the pie hitted wouldn't like
it either no matter the time or place
[04:14] Acolyte: You tell me
[04:14] via it depends on the paradigm one
is in, what is your paradigm?
[04:15] well first I would look in the dictionary
what a paradigm is.. then I would tell you... :P
[04:15] or you could tell me and save me
the time
[04:15] worldview=paradigm
[04:15] Acolyte: the world is full of messed
up people.. that's my paradigm
[04:16] via r u an athiest? Theist? pantheist?what?
[04:16] panthiest is what?
[04:16] exactly?
[04:16] God=nature
[04:16] hmmm... agnostic
[04:16] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^pantheism
[04:16] ic
[04:16] U C?
[04:17] :P
[04:17] you don't know or no one can know?
[04:17] I don't know
[04:17] ic
[04:17] well is man anything more than a material
body?
[04:17] pantheism is the belief that all things
are manifestations of god!
[04:17] IYO
[04:17] jako God=Nature, saves space
[04:18] all things? hmmm.. that's not me
[04:18] via is man anything more than a physical
body?
[04:18] Whats your "paradigm" Acolyte?
[04:18] Jako I am a Theist
[04:18] jakco specifically I am a Christian
Theist
[04:19] AH! and telepathic too. You answered my
question before I asked it. :)
[04:19] wow.. Ill send my 75 cents for that
"paradigm" word thingy
[04:19] :fi
[04:20] :)
[04:20] just kidding
[04:20] via wellif man is only materila thenemotions
are chemical reactions
[04:20] if man has no soul then his emotions
are bio-chemical reactions, as are his ideas
[04:20] well that wouldn't make sense if
Im an agnostic.. then I wouldn't believe that there
is NO God would I?
[04:21] I don't know which... le sigh...
[04:21] viamortis do you have reasons for your
denial of God's existence?
[04:21] :fi
[04:21] :P~
[04:21] AGNOSTIC.. NOT ATHIEST
[04:21] there is a difference
[04:21] :P
[04:21] via ok, do you think you cold ever
know?
[04:22] If I look long enough.. I will find
[04:22] right?
[04:22] Is it necessary to know?
[04:22] perhaps if you look correctly you will
find
[04:22] jako for somethings yes
[04:22] So there is a correct way to look?
[04:22] Jako: Of course it is.. it is the
future of your afterlife.. nothing? or death or life?
[04:22] For god and Christ?
[04:22] babysnake I thinks o
[04:22] jako yup
[04:23] What is this hypothetical correct
way?
[04:23] wooops
[04:23] brb
[04:23] hmmm... now that was just strange
[04:23] Okay I have another question.. assuming
God is Good.. how do we know that he will not change?
[04:24] not that one
[04:24] hmmm
[04:24] @tim 4 13
[04:24] dang it
[04:24] where is it
[04:24] AColyte: did you hear my question?
[04:24] yes
[04:24] be there in a second
[04:24] what cha think?
[04:24] What are you looking for?
[04:24] he's a christian.. he's FOUND it
all :P
[04:25] just kidding
[04:25] If I live a rightious (not sinless) life
and I spend a great deal of my time helping others
but do not accept the existance of the Christian God,
what will become of myu soul?
[04:25] jako depends
[04:25] not that one
[04:25] on what
[04:25] dang it I usually know that one by
heart
[04:25] Jako: I can answer that one
[04:25] if you would permit
[04:25] jako christians disagree on that issue
[04:25] go for it
[04:25] jako, some thing you'd be toast
[04:26] jako others depends on whaere you were,
if you in a place that youcould not hear the gospel
or not
[04:26] well according to Christian view...
If God is indeed perfect then he can't dwell with our
imperfect selves
[04:26] If we had ONE ounce of imperfection
how could he dwell?
[04:26] Via your question abut God
[04:26] What if I was raised a christian!
[04:26] thats simple
[04:26] I don't know...
[04:26] jako toast
[04:27] God does not change because his nature
determines what he will do, his nature is immutable
[04:27] Jako: So the only way to cover ALL
the sins or imperfections that one has.. they would
have to accept Christ
[04:27] via no
[04:27] That is the main reason I cannot call
myself a Christian
[04:27] via to have christ accept you
[04:27] jako why?
[04:27] Acolyte: If he "asks ya" you have to
accept him
[04:27] Acolyte: If he "asks ya" you have to
accept him
[04:28] Jako: what do you mean?
[04:28] there it is
[04:28] Acolyte: If he "asks ya" you have to
accept him
[04:28] Jako: what do you mean?
[04:28] via perhaps
[04:28] So what exactly is rational theism?
[04:28] Ac. I believe that we will be judged by
what is truly in our hearts. Any judgement will be
independant of out spiritual beliefs.
[04:28] perhaps? or right?
[04:28] how does one tell?
[04:29] jako so weather you love God does not
matter?
[04:29] via see jn 6 44
[04:29] Jako so you could hate God and still
go to heaven?
[04:29] Yes
[04:30] yes?
[04:30] Jako so you could hate God and still
go to heaven?
[04:30] Jako how does one merit God's favor?
[04:30] Unless god has an attitude
[04:30] Jako: So imperfection CAN dwell with
perfection?
[04:30] jako, what would the presence of God
be like for those that hate him?
[04:30] God CAN look upon evil and not care?
[04:30] via good question
[04:30] How do you know?
[04:30] Why should we try to merit gods favor!
[04:31] via he cares
[04:31] Why should he?
[04:31] jako, I am asking you, you seemto think
that God owes you eternal life
[04:31] Acolyte: I know that if a God took
the time to create us that he would be a different
God then "impersonal"
[04:31] via very true
[04:32] So Jako: can a perfect God dwell
with imperfection?
[04:32] I believe that eternal life is something
that should be earned by someones actions and by their
true heart, not by their spiritual belief!
[04:32] jako how do you earn God's Favor?
[04:32] How can one EVER hope to win salvation?
[04:32] jako how much good is enough?
[04:32] have you seen how evil a "rightous"
man can be?
[04:33] How then can a Unrightous man gain
eternal life?
[04:33] what If society made it impossible
to do good?
[04:33] Via, I have seen how evil a Christian
can be!
[04:33] then he's stuck in a hole
[04:33] jako ok, so how do you plan to earn
God's favor?
[04:33] Acolyte: assuming that we don't believe
in the bible... how can you quote it?
[04:33] Acolyte: assuming that we don't believe
in the bible... how can you quote it?
[04:33] via I do
[04:34] via its truth does not depend on your
assent to it
[04:34] That's my point.. I don't.. how can
you win me over with something i don't belive?
[04:34] Oh, I think it does aco.
[04:34] via other ways
[04:34] via by showing alternatives to be faulty
[04:34] thats one way
[04:34] Acolyte.. my point is... with scripture
you won't win anyone over unless they believe in the
scripture
[04:35] Ac. As I said, I plan to live my life
as morally and just as I can manage and will leave
the judgement up to God when the time comes, whatever
"god" is!
[04:35] or else then they will ignore it
[04:35] via perhaps, Ic an show how it comports
mwith experience tho
[04:35] Jako: How do you know that's good
enough?
[04:35] jako how do you know what is moral?
[04:35] xenno (balo@ix-okc-ok1-21.ix.netcom.com) joined
#apologetics.
[04:35] Via! I don't
[04:35] hmm
[04:35] xenno (balo@ix-okc-ok1-21.ix.netcom.com) left
#apologetics.
[04:35] jako how do you know what is moral?
[04:36] Jako: then what is the use trying
if you don't know what is good enough? how do you know
that two "sins" isn't bad enough to send you to hell
and that you never have a way to ignore those sin
s?
[04:36] or mistakes?
[04:36] Ac. Moralality, to me, is what I believe
to be just, For me it is to treat others as I would
want to be treated
[04:37] jako, so what you like makes a thing
moral?
[04:37] then it's already to late and your
on your way
[04:37] jako so what if I like to kill jews?
[04:37] Yes, what I like is my morality.
[04:37] jako thatis abitrary
[04:37] do unto others is jako's philosophy
[04:37] not what is fun
[04:37] via, that all depends onw hat he/she
likes tho
[04:37] Then in your morality Acolyte, you
would be correct. You should be prepared to be judged
by others however.
[04:38] Acolyte" pardon?
[04:38] baby why?
[04:38] baby: pardon
[04:38] baby why should my actins incurr judgement
if there is not any standrd to make a judgement by?
[04:38] anyone going to clear up their own
opinions?
[04:38] why what? If you like to kill jews,
then it must be morally acceptable to you.
[04:38] or just continue to be amgigious?
[04:38] ambiguious
[04:39] hmm.. how does one spell that word?
[04:39] The standard of judgement is your
fellow man.
[04:39] babysnake that is a descriptive staement
only tho
[04:40] jako I don't think you have really
delt with the problem of individual ethical systems
[04:40] Do you deny that you will be judged
by others? In fact, what is not a descriptive statement?
[04:40] babysnake why?
[04:40] why what?
[04:40] baysnake Prescriptive statements are
not descriptive stattments
[04:41] baby why should others judge me? and
how can they if there is nothing to judge BY?
[04:41] And the problem with a descriptive
statement is?
[04:41] Are we all okay on the concept that
there MIGHT be a God?
[04:41] or not?
[04:41] The can judge you by their own moral
code, and the code aggreed to by common consensus.
[04:41] babysnake it does not prescibe, ethics
deals with whatI OUGHT to to, not describing what I
do
[04:41] How you got killing jews out of my statement
baffels me! I did not say treat others as I please.
I said treat others as I would like to be treated myself.
[04:42] dad44 (stahley@ppp0.enter.net) joined #Apologetics.
[04:42] babysnake but how do you know there
is morality at all?
[04:42] dad44 (stahley@ppp0.enter.net) left #Apologetics.
[04:42] Jako, do all ppl like to be treated
the same way? No also, why should i value how I like
to be treated?
[04:42] Jako: I already said that for your
benifit already
[04:42] :fi
[04:42] scroll up
[04:43] I am not claiming there is. I am
claiming that we all have our own ehtical code for
ourselves, and then there are guidelines agrred upon
by common consenus.
[04:43] babysnake but if therea re no ethics
then we cannot have an ethcial code, now can we?
[04:44] Babysnake Consensus gentium, just because
we agree does not make it true or right ethically or
factually
[04:44] Ac. So morality, outside of the religious
setting, is non existant
[04:44] babysnake informal fallacy
[04:44] Jako: that is true
[04:44] jako yes
[04:44] since "all ie relative"
[04:44] jako ppl are not consistent
[04:44] I am afraid it does make it true.
There is no other standard to use.
[04:44] Ac, either is religion
[04:45] Babysnake why not God's standard?
[04:45] Jako how do you know that?
[04:45] Ac. look at the different interpretation
of the bible!
[04:45] Because God's standard is up to interpetation,
hence, if we agree what god's standard is then it would
be true. It is still by consensus.
[04:45] jako: different? like what?
[04:46] jako how does hppl interpreting what
God does and says make what God does and says inconssitent?
[04:46] Jako: One can misinterpret shakespear
but is the wrong way the way that is correct?
[04:46] Babysnake is there anything that is
not debatable? No
[04:46] yes there is Acolyte
[04:46] :P
[04:46] Ac. I didn's say that Gos was inconsistant,
I said that religion was inconsistant
[04:46] joke
[04:46] Jako: One can misinterpret shakespear
but is the wrong way the way that is correct?
[04:47] someone going to listen?
[04:47] No there is not, and that is my point
acolyte, thanks.
[04:47] jako many ppl in religious bodie are,
so?
[04:47] babysnake so lack of debate does not
make an issue correct, nor does the existence of debate
make a position false
[04:48] |