[ref001]
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/20/96
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/20/96
{NOTICE: The *Alcuin* in this log is NOT, repeat NOT,
the Alcuin who is a regular op on this channel. Please
take this into consideration as you proceed.}
[22:22] Milhous (hlm3mr@199.218.197.247) joined #apologetics.
[22:29] Alcuin (whoneeds@dial21.vonl.com) joined #apologetics.
[22:29] Alcuin (whoneeds@dial21.vonl.com) left #apologetics.
[22:30] Alcuin (whoneeds@dial21.vonl.com) joined #apologetics.
[22:30] What is an apologetic?
[22:31] Whoa./
[22:31] Hey, Alcuin.
[22:31] Wait...let me explain.
[22:32] I am not the apologetic Alcuin. I am
a different one that a ProfG came to me and said that
I wasn't the right alcuin...that there was another
alcuin...that he was on apologetics...so...my original
question?
[22:32] What is an apologetic?
[22:33] Oh.
[22:34] An apologetic is one who defends the
Christian faith via reason.
[22:34] Ah.
[22:34] Hmm.
[22:34] Now, let me ask a question...
[22:34] But, Isn't Christianity based on faith
without reason?
[22:34] What is an Alcuin?
[22:34] Alcuin was Charlemange's teacher.
[22:34] of York I think.
[22:35] Ah.
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[22:54] Recon (jwalsh@cs2-10.str.ptd.net) joined #apologetics.
[22:55] Hi, Recon.
[22:55] hi Milhous.. whats up?
[22:55] Hello Recon...are you an apologetic
or a nonbeliever...or what?
[22:55] Alcuin: Fundamentalists there who believe
the Bible is literally true, all parts.
[22:55] Alcuin Not all, but a few..
[22:55] apologetic...
[22:55] Fundamentalism is wrong...
[22:56] So...Recon...why is atheism not logical?
[22:57] Why would an atheist suppose that logic
should be the standard his beliefs are judged by?
[22:57] Interesting...but explain further...
[22:57] gotta run soon.. get up early tomorrow..
[22:57] In an atheist's world-view
[22:58] The universe is a random collection of
events..
[22:58] The concept of a universal logic...
[22:58] But isn't Apologeticism trying to make
Christianity logical?
[22:58] I don't. In my world view, things do
not have to have a reason to exist or occur. Therefore,
logic doesn't apply.
[22:59] requires God. God is rational and the
standard by which logic holds true...
[22:59] Logic and science ends where God (not
necessarily religion) begins.
[22:59] God made logic.
[22:59] Man made logic.
[22:59] Alcuin : no, Apologetics is showing that
logic and reason exist because God exists
[22:59] ...if he exists.
[22:59] God made logic
[23:00] Milhous : so logic is not universal?
[23:00] However, God set up the standards by
which logic was discovered/invented.
[23:00] Recon: No. How could it be? The entire
universe is apparently not conscious.
[23:00] Milhous: Is there 'absolute truth'?
[23:00] Recon: No.
[23:00] Milhous : Are you absolutely sure?
[23:01] You want to know something, guys????
[23:01] Milhous : Im not being coy.. thats a
serious question
[23:01] what Alcuin?
[23:01] Recon: That's a dumb question.
[23:01] zoo1 (mjhurst@ppp41.skn.net) joined #apologetics.
[23:01] You will never know one way or another...while
alive.
[23:01] Milhous : why is it dumb?
[23:01] To argue with the idea of knowledge
is a mistake.
[23:01] Recon: Yes. Here's a paradox for you:
the one thing that is the truth is that nothing is
the truth.
[23:01] Milhous: you tell me there is no absolute
truth.. I am asking you how you can be sure...
[23:02] To argue with a realization of a possibility
to be wrong is better...
[23:02] Milhous : so how do you KNOW there is
no absolute truth..
[23:02] Recon: I can't. And I don't.
[23:02] Paradox's don't exist...
[23:03] Milhous : then why did you say there
is no absolute truth.. do you expect me to believe
something even you dont believe to be true?
[23:03] A paradox is an area of logic that man
has not yet been able to solidify...Fuzzy logic is
now explaining that...
[23:04] Milhous : so at best, you are stating
your opinion that there is no absolute truth
[23:04] Recon: Yes.
[23:04] OPINIONS ARE ALL THAT WE HAVE!
[23:04] Facts do not exist.
[23:04] Right, Alcuin.
[23:04] Thanks.
[23:04] Science could be entirely wrong.
[23:04] Alcuin and Milhous : you are both contradicting
yourselves.. is it a fact that opinion is all we have?
[23:04] It could be entirely right.
[23:05] Yes it is.
[23:05] That is all...opinion...
[23:05] Cant you see the reductu ad absurbem
there?
[23:05] Recon: And you, sir, are being facetious.
[23:05] No.
[23:05] There is none.
[23:05] Alcuin : it is a fact!, then you contradict
yourself.
[23:05] No it isn't a fact.
[23:06] It's my opinion...obviously...because
you persist in attacking it.
[23:06] Recon: We are huge, godawful ugly masses
of replicating molecules IMHO.
[23:06] Im not the one asserting ideas and then
saying I have no basis to assert them since its all
just opinion anyway
[23:06] Recon: You will die deep down knowing
that you don't really know.
[23:07] Through some Darwinian joke, we got
this idea of Truth. My cat doesn't worry about Truth.
[23:07] Recon: No latin phrase made to fight
logical battles will change that.
[23:07] but If I 'Know' anything.. even that
I dont 'know' .. then I will know something!
[23:07] whitts (jaja@206.186.69.106) joined #apologetics.
[23:07] Exactly.
[23:07] Ok.. I say.. you guys Know deep inside
that God exists and you and him are not on good terms
[23:07] Again you are trying to claim "paradox",
but there is no such thing...
[23:07] We are the Microsoft of organisms....our
programs are bloated, huge, and have a lame-brained
interface...
[23:08] you are the ones claiming paradox! not
me.. I am pointing out the inherent paradox in your
thinking!
[23:08] Recon: I believe truly and deeply in
a God...but fact doesn't prove him...I am deeply disturbed
about my fate and actions...but logic is not going
to argue it away.
[23:08] zoo1 (mjhurst@ppp41.skn.net) left #apologetics.
[23:09] Recon: The existence of God is not
a subject for logic.
[23:09] Recon: You are arguing that we have
paradox's...but...paradoxes don't exist.
[23:09] Exactly, logic is no way to defend God.
[23:09] Recon: Falsifiaboloty, all that.
[23:09] Recon (jwalsh@cs2-10.str.ptd.net) left irc:
gotta jack-out sometime...
[23:09] er falsifiability.
[23:09] Heh heh.
[23:10] Anyway...
[23:10] Basic tenet of logic is that a statement
must conceivably, somehow, be proven false.
[23:10] You can't falsify the statement "There
is a God."
[23:11] You can't prove it either.
[23:11] See?
[23:11] whitts (jaja@206.186.69.106) left #apologetics.
[23:11] Well, you can't prove ANYTHING....but
you can disprove things...
[23:12] Exactly!
[23:12] I have been telling people that "proof"
does not exist for anything.
[23:12] Anything that can be disproven somehow
is in the realm of logic.
[23:12] "proof" is a lie.
[23:13] Things like "God exists." or "Love is
a many-splendoured thing." can not be broken down logically...
[23:13] GIGO
[23:14] Remember...the people that argue an
existence in God are out of whack...they follow the
core scientific/Greek belief that everything in the
universe can be explained...yet they also believe in
a God...thus...God can be explained a
nd to hell with him trying to tell them that he cannot.
[23:16] Wouldn't it be sad to die and find ourselves
going to Hades to roam with the souls as Zeus rules
over us?
[23:16] Right....personally, if God wants to
make an appearance, I'm all ears. But arguing the existence
of God from a purely physical, logical standpoint is
kind of dumb.
[23:17] Heh...or we all get in this armor and
fight in Armageddon...
[23:17] Action: Alcuin shudders.
[23:17] primetime (tdoane@muselab-gw.runet.edu) joined
#apologetics.
[23:18] Or to find out...that...only oblivian
awais...that...that that's all...
[23:18] ...or that the Jews were the only ones
to get the chance to go to Heaven...
[23:19] ...or that only a specific religion
is forever blessed...
[23:19] ...while the rest are damned...
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