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#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/3/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/3/96
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[04:14] faux if you GO and READ any dictionary
of the bible, there IS a species in the middle East
of LOCUSTS, not crickets, that walsk on 4 legs
[04:14] To you, but I believe your argument
had more holes than swiss cheese. :)
[04:14] Jonesey: there is more than one definition
of species and evolution and science tho.
[04:14] Acolyte: also, mantises walk on four
legs.
[04:14] Jonesey: how does science relate to
religion?
[04:14] Can you tell me which?
[04:14] faux this is what leviticus is refering
to since not all locusts were unclean, as John the
Baptist indicates in the NT
[04:14] that's the one I saw the picture on.
I told her it had 4 legs!
[04:14] she told me to "look again". :)
[04:15] faux can I tell you which what? what
species? no, as mI am at worka nd Id on't haev the
source handy, but email me and I will give you the
exact name
[04:15] pascoe:But the typical religious person
I debate can't give me any that make sense
[04:15] jonesy try me
[04:15] Acolyte: also, an argument could be
made that idiom is used like as in 'on all fours'.
[04:15] Okay.
[04:15] jonsey the typcial atheist I debate
with doesn't know squat about Philosophy, so?
[04:15] samsara:Science is the study of the
physical universe. Whenever religion makes comments
on part of the physical universe, it becomes subject
to science.
[04:15] pascoe true, either way, its no biggie
[04:15] Acolyte:But philosophy is useless.
What has it given us?
[04:15] jonsey false
[04:15] Who cares about it?
[04:16] jonsey science for one
[04:16] Pascoe: We've already discussed this.
IT's dropped as far as I'm concerned.
[04:16] That's silly
[04:16] Acolyte: also, we say centipede even
in modern language even tho centipedes don't have 100
legs.
[04:16] jonsey it is? how so?
[04:16] FauxReal: hey, I still want my $100.
8)
[04:16] pascoe I know
[04:16] Jonesey: but isn't religion what lies
behind logical systems and human models? surely if
you accept evolution, you must agree?
[04:16] jonsey it is epistemology and metaphysics
that makes science possible for one
[04:17] Science arose as much out of construction,
and practical knowledge as it did out of philosophy.
[04:17] acolyte:That's baloney
[04:17] weaving and farming contributed much
[04:17] evolution itself is an expression of
religious conviction about the evidence.
[04:17] jonsey the theoretical laid the groundwork
for the practical
[04:17] jonsey whatis baloney?
[04:17] Pascoe: As soon as I verify that any
insect uses it's mandibles to walk. :)
[04:17] Mode change '+o pascoe ' by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com
[04:17] belief in science as a method for arriving
at truth is a philosophical presupposition.
[04:18] pascoe empiricism for one
[04:19] jonsey without an epistemology science
would be impossible and never would have arisen
[04:19] acolyte:Farmiing preceded philosophy
by a great margin
[04:19] acolyate:That is bollox
[04:19] FauxReal: scorpions do that according
to Fox's book on entomology.
[04:19] jonsey AHHAHAH, not quite my freind,
atomism for one came around 2500 yrs before it was
verified in any meaningful sense
[04:19] The arabs did a lot of early science
with no epistemology to speak of
[04:19] jonsey false
[04:19] acolyte:early atomism wasn't science.
[04:19] Jonesey: are you considering farming
to be a science?
[04:19] It was just sheer speculation.
[04:19] joney the Arabs were using Aristotle,r
ead yor history
[04:19] Modern atomic theory is a whole different
ball game
[04:20] Well, then Fox is wrong, because scorpions
aren't insects. Entomology is the study of insects,
not arachnids. :)
[04:20] Acolyte:Some were, most weren't.
[04:20] Jonesey: I am confused. Doesn't the
observer (human) inherently bias what (religion) he
is measuring with the measuring instrument (science/metphysics/philosophy)?
[04:20] jonsey in essrnce it is the same
[04:20] farming has contributed much to science.
[04:20] In essence it isn't.
[04:20] jonsey, do you know what epistemology
IS?
[04:20] This is a very different model indeed.
[04:20] FauxReal: read his intro to see why
he classifies them under entomology.
[04:20] jonsey different ins ome respects but
its basic assumptions are the same
[04:20] Acolyte:It purports to be a theory
of knowledge, but there are many radically differing
brands of it.
[04:21] jonesey wrong
[04:21] So much so that it's hard to call it
all "epistemology" with a straight face..
[04:21] jonsey episteologyis the study of knowledge
and how it is attained
[04:21] It's hard to correlate protons, electrons
and neutrons with the atoms of democritus
[04:21] jonsey without a general working theory,
there isno learning
[04:21] acolyte:That's bS
[04:21] jonsey, not really
[04:21] Jonesey: science is always subject
to new data.
[04:21] jonsey oh really? how long have you
been in the field of philosophy?
[04:22] I have no idea of epistemology, but
I have a lot more learning than virtually any philosopher,
in terms of handling the world.
[04:22] acolyte:Zero
[04:22] No interest in the field, really.
[04:22] It's useless.
[04:22] jonsey I have 10 yrs in the field,
how about you?
[04:22] samsara (jcc15583@132.170.24.89) left #Apologetics.
[04:22] jonsey why is utility a criteria?
[04:22] Jonesey: the pursuit of science is
based on a fundamental philosophical presupposition.
[04:24] acolyte:Because you're sitting here
on the internet, BSing about how useful philosophy
is. Has it given us anything to compare with the net?
[04:24] Or the computer?
[04:24] Action: Acolyte wonders howif he does not know
about Epistemology then how canhe have more learning
about a field he knows nothig about???
[04:24] Those all come from science, not from
stupid word tricks.
[04:24] Yes, the mind.
[04:24] Jonsey yes, ethics
[04:24] No, not the mind
[04:24] jonsey without logic youwould not have
computers to begin with
[04:24] The study of the mind is just beginning,
thanks the the advances of neuroscience.
[04:26] But logic is a brance of mathematics.
[04:26] AHHAHAHAHHA
[04:26] It really began to advance with Boole.
[04:26] wrong
[04:29] The mind, the collective unconcious
which has become concious through the Internet.
[04:29] er, conscious, even.
[04:29] jonsey the Law of Contradiction is
the basis for math, not derived from it
[04:29] computers are based on boolean algebra,
implemented in semiconductor physics.
[04:29] Acolyte:It's a part of math.
[04:29] jonsey sure, but without the law of
contradiction it is all BS
[04:29] jonsey how do you show the law of contradictionwithout
using it?
[04:29] Much of math is derived without the
law of contradiction.
[04:29] I'm not sure what you mean.
[04:29] jonsey the LofC is pre-mathmatical,
it is an a priori
[04:29] There are lots of constructive type
proofs.
[04:29] jonsey HAHAHHAH
[04:29] jonsey you can't THINK wihout the LofC
[04:29] try it
[04:29] There are many axioms in math, does
that make them premathematical??
[04:29] you can't do it
[04:29] You are just trying to define things
away
[04:29] Typical philosopher.
[04:29] jonsey name me one that does not rely
on the lofC?
[04:29] Totally useless at real world tasks
[04:29] fallacy
[04:29] Jonesey: your argument this evening
is quite philosophical in nature.
[04:29] Whacking off on word games.
[04:29] attackt he source ignore the arguement
[04:29] great tactic
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[04:29] jonsey it is word games when I talk
but not when youtalk?
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[04:30] I don't believe in science as a method
for arriving at truth.
[04:30] jonsey then how does one arrive at
truth?
[04:30] Jonesey: Go to #philosophy for a debate
with real philosophers (tm) ;)
[04:30] I see it as a method for building models
which increasingly accurately model experiment
[04:30] disbelief in science as a method for
arriving at truth is a philosophical presupposition.
[04:30] Good, jonesey!
[04:30] jonsesy is that a true or false proposition?
[04:30] That's what science is.
[04:31] Acolyte:Yes, it is, because I said
so.
[04:31] jonsey logical fallacy, appeal to authority
[04:31] Philosophy is a way of arriving at
the Truth.
[04:31] tyry again
[04:31] jonsey youa re commiting just about
every informal logically fallacy in the book
[04:31] Yes, but I appealed to the highest
authority on the channel.
[04:31] wish to try ad ignoratum next?
[04:32] jonsey so? still invalid logically
[04:32] philosophy doesn't arrive at shit.
[04:32] watcht eh language
[04:32] yes, I'm watching it
[04:32] It's right there on my screen
[04:32] Watch it too
[04:32] Incorrect, it arrives at greater understanding
of human nature and the nature of reality.
[04:32] Jonesey!Quantum@al.dialup.access.net kicked
by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com: Acolyte
[04:32] Jonesey (Quantum@al.dialup.access.net) joined
#apologetics.
[04:33] I said watch it, capiche?
[04:33] Biology arrives at greater understanding
of human nature
[04:33] Action: FauxReal watches Acolyte say, "*I* have
the power!"
[04:33] I told you,
we're both watching it, capiche?
[04:33] jonsey assuming a naturlaistic paradigm
yes
[04:33] Jonesey!Quantum@al.dialup.access.net kicked
by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com: Go somewhere
else to be an ass
[04:33] Jonesey (Quantum@al.dialup.access.net) joined
#apologetics.
[04:33] hehe
[04:33] No, biology arrives at greater understanding
of living systems.
[04:33] Acolyte:What medical advances has philosophy
given us?
[04:33] jonsey why does it need to?
[04:34] jonsey what ethical advaneces has science
given us? none
[04:34] Plenty
[04:34] jonsey what good is science if you
don't know how it OUGHT ot be used?
[04:34] jonsey name one please
[04:34] It sure has given us lots of questions
about ethics, though.
[04:34] Now we can see that ethics is a purely
natural phenomenon, arising even in the animal kingdom
[04:34] fauxreal true
[04:34] HAHAHHAHAHHAHAH
[04:34] jonsey if thatis true then you end
up with ethical nihilism
[04:34] Jonesey: science is what we know, philosophy
is the examination of reasoning and grounds for knowledge.
[04:34] What! Jonesey, I think not.
[04:35] jonsey youc annot derive an ought form
an is, sorry
[04:35] Pascoe: No, *that*'s epistemology!
[04:35] You're the ethical nihilist..you are
coercive, for example.
[04:35] W (cservice@undernet.org) joined #Apologetics.
[04:35] Yes, you can, if you feel like it.
[04:35] jonsey how am I an ethical nihilist?
[04:35] Mode change '+o W ' by okc2.ok.us.undernet.org
[04:35] YOu kicked me off the channel, for
no good reason.
[04:35] I had a good reason, youdid not comply
with channel rules
[04:35] Mode change '+o ApoloBot ' by W!cservice@undernet.org
[04:35] That was coercive
[04:36] so?
[04:36] FauxReal: epistemology is philosophy.
[04:36] Where are the channel rules?
[04:36] We're not here to serve rules
[04:36] Especially invisible ones
[04:36] jonsey then go
[04:36] that you arbitrarily impose
[04:36] fine go somewhere else then
[04:36] OK, bye!
[04:36] Jonesey (Quantum@al.dialup.access.net) left
#apologetics.
[04:36] geez what an ass
[04:36] pascoe: That's like saying computers
are IBMs. IT's the other way around. Epistemology
is a branch of philosophy, not the whole.
[04:37] faux correct
[04:37] Acolyte: watch your language :P
[04:37] Indeed, ac.
[04:37] :>
[04:37] mrbell ok jerk
[04:37] twit
[04:37] FauxReal: I am using the definition
of philosophy used on this campus. sorry if it is
too narrow. 8)
[04:37] dope
[04:37] pascoe: Yep. Switch schools.
[04:37] Much better Acolyte....
[04:37] pascoe it is too incorrect is all
[04:38] well I should really go
[04:38] bye Acolyte. 8)
[04:38] I wonder if jonesey is a teacher.
[04:38] bye aco :)
[04:38] have fun
[04:38] FauxReal: how does your school define
philosophy?
[04:38] faux what an ignorant teacher then
[04:38] I don't know. I've never taken a
philosophy course at my school.
[04:38] pax
[04:38] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) left
irc: Leaving
[04:39] FauxReal: but my definition is wrong?
8) ok.
[04:39] Krai (iris@prism.com) left irc: Krai
[04:39] Pas: Yes.
[04:39] Godbless bbl :)
[04:39] MrBell (Micah@ppp23.ihug.co.nz) left #apologetics.
[04:39] FauxReal: I'll have to tell the department
to change their catalog.
[04:40] Philosophy is the inquiry into the
most comprehensive principles of reality in general,
or of some limited sector of it *such as* human...
[04:40] knowledge or human values.
[04:40] Jonesey: science is what we know, philosophy
is the examination of reasoning and grounds for knowledge.
[04:40] i.e. epistemology and ethics.
[04:41] That is only the epistemological branch
of philosophy.
[04:42] FauxReal: I didn't give the complete
definition of philosophy (which would include morals)
because I wanted to stress the connection with science.
[04:42] We're the only ones here.
[04:42] Then you should just have said epistemology.
[04:43] FauxReal: epistemology is philosophy.
8)
[04:43] but philosophy is not epistemology.
=)
[04:43] FauxReal: but, I didn't say it was.
8)
[04:44] FauxReal: I think you just want to
argue. 8)
[04:44] You implied it. I was just filling
it out.
[04:44] I can't argue here...
[04:44] I don't have an audience!
[04:44] FauxReal: the discussion was the connection
of philosophy to science, not philosophy to ethics.
so don't get too picky. 8)
[04:45] Sorry, I'm always picky on IRC.
[04:45] I guess I should lighten up on you
people. I can't expect everyone to go by my standards.
[04:46] FauxReal: I would be too if I was offering
$100 to people who disagreed with me all the time.
8)
[04:46] That's true, pas.
[04:46] Where'd you get your nick, anyway?
[04:46] it was given to me by my parents.
[04:46] Ah. For what?
[04:46] its my last name. 8)
[04:47] Oh.
[04:47] Anything interesting going on in #bible?
[04:47] no, silence.
[04:47] I should go read my email too. bye
for now.
[04:47] pascoe (pasc8891@xslip97.csrv.uidaho.edu) left
#apologetics.
[04:47] Ah. Well, I think I'll head over
to #Philosophy.
[04:48] FauxReal (ZCLL4@ETSU.east-tenn-st.edu) left
#APOLOGETICS.
----------------------------------------------------------
[TANDEM BOT LINK: #biblechat] ProfG: @@@ matt 21
5
logos6: Mat21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold,
thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an
ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. (KJV)
ProfG: Working miracles:
ProfG: @@@ isa 35 5 6
ProfG: uh oh, is the bot lagged, or am I?
ProfG: @@@ matt 11 4 6
hapi: bot
Ferrago: the bot. i think
ProfG: oh good
logos6: Isa35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall
be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
(KJV)
ProfG: I mean, *not* good
logos6: Isa35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as
an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the
wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the
desert. (KJV)
hapi: 32 seconds...
Ferrago: ok, well true, jesus was predicted....and
that came true
Ferrago: but, what about god, and his form, what
does he entail, spirit, / body ?
ProfG: There's a LOT more, which could ONLY have
been fulfilled by the TRUE Messiah, who could ONLY
have come from the TRUE God
hapi: @@@ John 30 10
hapi: er...
hapi: @@@ John 10 30
ProfG: God is a Spirit
ProfG: bot lag, hapi :(
Ferrago: but then how does he exist?
hapi: God is threefold :)
Ferrago: what is his aim?
logos6: John21:10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring
of the fish which ye have now caught. (KJV)
hapi: Father, Son and Holy Ghost...
logos6: John10:30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)
ProfG: how does He exist?
Ferrago: if he a spirit.....
Ferrago: slike a ghost??
ProfG: a ghost?
ProfG: God is all-powerful, not like any ghost
*I've* heard of! :-)
Ferrago: heh, if he exists. then he must take a
form,
ProfG: brb, gotta dry off my wet 1 year old :-)
hapi: hehehe :)
You have been marked as being away
Ferrago: heh ok :)
hapi: I think that sometimes we get too caught
up in what He should look like..we are made in His
image, though :)
hapi: @@@ Genesis 1 26 27
logos6: Ge1:26 And God said, Let us make man in
our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion
over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and
over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the eart
logos6: h. (KJV)
logos6: Ge1:27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him; male and female
created he them. (KJV)
Ferrago: his intellecual image /mental image, but
not physical
Ferrago: ok heres a question....
Ferrago: what does he do...
hapi: I'm not God...how do I know? :)
hapi: hehehehe ;)
Philos is now known as MasterQ
Ferrago: heh true
hapi: He gives us the chance for eternal life
in Heaven :)
hapi: He is ready for us to come to Him in times
of distress and times of joy :)
hapi: He wants to hear about *from us* what we
are hapi about and sad about
hapi: Hewants us to lvoe Him and others unconditionally
hapi: He wants us to be His :)
Ferrago: how about the BIG question.........
Ferrago: Why?
hapi: even bigger...
hapi: why not? :)
hapi: why not believe in something that *only*
prmotes good? :)
hapi: s/prmotes/promotes :)
hapi: there is nothing about God that is bad!
:)
Ferrago: why create us.....why give us the choice...
hapi: He's *aaaaaaaaaaaaaall* Good! :)
You are no longer marked as being away
ProfG: back
hapi: because He wanted to ;0
hapi: :)
hapi: hehehehe :)
Ferrago: but i do beleive.....just not in Him
ProfG: Ferrago: what do you believe?
Ferrago: it seems to much effort for that..
hapi: why is it hard to believe in Him?
hapi: He made good...
hapi: too much effort to go to heaven? :)
ProfG: Ferrago: what do you believe?
hapi weighsthe options...heaven...hell....heaven....hell...
hapi: HEAVEN WINS :)
Ferrago: I beleive in Peace and honesty and all
the crap that is disapearing ....probably the same
as you
ProfG: yes, but there is a difference:
Ferrago: hapi: no too much effort for god
ProfG: there is no *reason* to believe in that
"crap" if you don't believe in God
Ferrago: yes, there is
ProfG: if there is no God, then there is no standard
of absolute values
ProfG: so why believe in "Peace and honesty and
all the crap"?
Ferrago: cause if you don`t beleive it is the way
to live....then the world would be a place of violence
and missery
ProfG: Ferrago: so?
ProfG: what makes that type of world wrong?
hapi: but what do you think made us believe in
goodness?
Ferrago: So, i don`t wanna live in a world like
that..where you gett mugged etc...murdered...
ProfG: you don't "want" to, but what makes such
a world wrong?
Ferrago: cause there is no harmony, and peace.....because
....
Ferrago: becuase, there is no trust.
ProfG: so what? what makes harmony, peace, and
trust *right*???
Ferrago: cause it`s my opinion....and if i thought
it was wrong i would beleive in something else
Ferrago: it`s right to me
hapi: but where did you get the idea that itwas/is
right for you?
Ferrago: you tell me :)
hapi: I can't :)
hapi: I'm not you :)
hapi: ;)
ProfG: Ferrago: what if it's not right for someone
else? Is it ok then for them to promote discord, war,
and lack of trust?
Ferrago: heh
Ferrago: no. prof, majority rules :)
ProfG: if the majority are opposed to peace, is
peace therefore wrong?
ProfG: if the majority favor killing Jews, is
killing Jews ok?
ProfG: Ferrago, Might Makes Right???
Ferrago: ahhh, but it has always been that way
Ferrago: i mean
ProfG: not asking that
Ferrago: values, not majority
Ferrago: wait..
Ferrago: i beleive in what i beleive because that
is what i have been taught to beleive in
hapi: who taught you?
ProfG: but we need to *examine* what we believe;
if our beliefs are self-contradictory, we need to reassess
them
Ferrago: teachers / parents / myself / society
hapi: how many Christians do you know?
hapi: parents...? teachers...? friends...?
Ferrago: hmm hard to tell......
Ferrago: about 50 %
Ferrago: of people i know
hapi: do you thinkg that their beliefs have rubbed
off on you any? :)
Ferrago: yes....
ProfG: if we believe in right and wrong as absolute
standards, and we don't believe in God, then we are
living self-contradictory lives
ProfG: some call this "hypocrisy"
hapi: and Who do youthink taughtthem? :)
Ferrago: that is certain
ProfG: brb, daughter's bedtime
Ferrago: prof, i dissagree
You have been marked as being away
hapi: Ferrago, do you believe inteh devil
hapi: the devil?
Ferrago: hapi: nope
hapi: ProfG is a family man :)
Ferrago: well, yes
hapi: yes or no? :)
Ferrago: i beleive that the devil is the evil in
us all
Ferrago: but not that he exists
hapi: do youthink the devil is a being?
Ferrago: it is a name tag
Ferrago: nope
hapi: so..youthink God is a nametag?
Ferrago: yep :)
You are no longer marked as being away
ProfG: back
hapi: putthat tag on a body :)
ProfG: Ferrago: you say "the evil in us all"...
please tell me how you judge what is "evil" and what
is "good"
Ferrago: selfishness / mean etc.... evil
Ferrago: kind / patince = good
ProfG: no, not what your *definition* - HOW you
determine what is good and evil
Ferrago: bad spelling - life
ProfG: what is your standard of judgment?
Ferrago: heh. myself
Ferrago: comparision
Ferrago: how else
ProfG: I see. Then what if someone disagrees with
you on what is good and evil? How do you determine
who is correct?
Ferrago: that depends
ProfG: yes?
Ferrago: say you have a different opinion then i
respect that
Ferrago: but if you steal from someone, i would
judge it as wrong
hapi: (judge not lest ye be judged...)
hapi: (an eye for an eye...)
ProfG: ok, let's say my opinion is that ppl who
have the nickname of Ferrago should be put to death.
Where do we go from here?
Ferrago: heh, i`m human,
hapi: (thou shall not steal...) :)
Ferrago: then i would think you are totally insane,
i would ignore you
ProfG: that's fine, but how do we determine whether
I am right or not?
Ferrago: cause i would think you are wrong....
Ferrago: my opinion
Ferrago: my opions vs your opinion
Ferrago: two opinions
Ferrago: that it
Ferrago: but that is good
ProfG: Ferrago, please understand where I'm coming
from here; if you don't have *objective* standards
of right and wrong, then there can BE no right or wrong
in an absolute sense, so we end up with nihilism and
anarchy and a worse off world
ProfG: but in a non-theistic worldview, there
can BE no objective standards of right and wrong
ProfG: yet, most non-theists believe in right
and wrong
ProfG: Ferrago: was Hitler wrong to kill 6 million
Jews?
ProfG: Ferrago: was slavery in the Old South wrong?
Ferrago: but.
Ferrago: your standards are the 10 commandments
Ferrago: and the teachings
Ferrago: prof: of course
Ferrago: yep
Ferrago: wrong
ProfG: Ferrago: prove it, please
Ferrago: you prove it
Ferrago: can you?
ProfG: I can prove it is wrong by referencing
the Bible, as you know. But how can *you* prove it
to be wrong?
ProfG: you see, *my* worldview allows absolute
standards of right and wrong. How can yours?
Ferrago: in the absolute sence, it is imposible
ProfG: That is correct.
ProfG: So, we have no right to say that Hitler
was wrong.
ProfG: Or chattel slavery.
ProfG: UNLESS we have absolute standards of right
and wrong.
ProfG: Do you see where I'm getting at?
Ferrago: but how can you prove the ten commandment
to be absolute?
ProfG: where = what
Ferrago: yes i do
ProfG: OK...
ProfG: Let me just say this...
ProfG: I respect your openness and honesty in
questioning the truth of the Bible...
Ferrago: thankyou
ProfG: It is certainly your privilege not to believe
it, and I would fight for that right on your part...
ProfG: But I would like to ask you a question.
Ferrago: ok :)
ProfG: The main message of the Bible, which has
been unquestionably the most important literary work
in human history, is how a person may have eternal
life. So...
ProfG: what I would like to know is...
ProfG: what do you understand that the Bible teaches
about how a person may have eternal life and go to
heaven?
Ferrago: hmm well.. nope
ProfG: no, I mean, what is your *understanding*
of what the Bible teaches about how a person may have
eternal life and go to heaven?
Ferrago: ahh, by living life accoeding to gods rules...10
commands etc..
ProfG: I see... ok...
ProfG: That's just what I was afraid of, Ferrago.
You have rejected the Bible without even understanding
its main message, for your answer is not only incorrect,
but it is diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches...
ProfG: Now, don't you think that a more intellectual
approach would be to let me share with you what the
Scriptures teach on this subject, and then you can
make an intelligent decision whether to reject or accept
it?
Ferrago: sure...
ProfG: Great! ok...
ProfG: After hearing your statement, I know that
I have some REALLY GREAT NEWS for you...
Ferrago: I bet :)
ProfG: in fact, I would go so far as to say that
you are going to hear the greatest good news that you
have ever heard in your whole life! That's quite a
statement, isn't it?
Ferrago: 1 q
ProfG: HEAVEN is a FREE GIFT
ProfG: It is not EARNED or DESERVED
ProfG: let me tell you something...
Ferrago: it is.
Ferrago: ..
ProfG: a large part of my life I felt exactly
as you do. I thought if I was ever to get to heaven
I'd have to earn it. I'd have to become good enough,
and work for it and deserve it...
ProfG: And then I discovered something that absolutely
amazed me. I discovered that heaven is absolutely a
FREE GIFT - it is unearned, unmerited,and undeserved.
It's FREE!
ProfG: take a look at this:
ProfG: @@@ rom 6 23
ProfG: c'mon bot
logos6: Rom6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ
our Lord. (KJV)
ProfG: "the gift of God is eternal life"
ProfG: isn't that amazing?
Ferrago: yes,,,,but is it possible...?
ProfG: this isn't just the way it IS...
ProfG: it's the only way it *could* be...
ProfG: let me show you why
ProfG: The Bible teaches us that all of us have
sinned, that there is not one of us good enough to
get into heaven because God's standard is perfection!
ProfG: If we have to be good enough, Jesus says
we would have to be perfect:
ProfG: @@@ matt 5 48
ProfG: @@@ rom 3 23
logos6: Mat5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as
your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (KJV)
logos6: Rom3:23 For all have sinned, and come short
of the glory of God; (KJV)
ProfG: In our thoughts, in our words, in our deeds
- we have all failed to keep his commandments both
by sins of commission and by sins of omission - that
is, by the things we have done and the things that
we have left undone...
ProfG: This is the reason that none of us can
earn his way into heaven. We can't save ourselves...
ProfG: @@@ eph 2 8 9
logos6: Eph2:8 For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of
God: (KJV)
logos6: Eph2:9 Not of works, lest any man should
boast. (KJV)
ProfG: *not of works*
ProfG: The problem of man trying to save himself
becomes even more acute when we look at what the Bible
says about God...
ProfG: We know that God is merciful and loving,
gracious and kind, but the same Bible says that the
same God is also just and holy and righteous; that
is is of purer eyes than to look upon sin; that he
must punish sin...
ProfG: The Bible says that God is angry with the
wicked every day and that he has commanded all men
everywhere to repent...
ProfG: Of course, we know the Bible teaches that
God is loving and merciful and gracious. He doesn't
want to punish us...
ProfG: He must deal with sin but he doesn't want
to punish us because he loves us...
ProfG: Now what is the answer to this dilemma?
well...
ProfG: God in his infinite wisdom devised a solution.
ProfG: God sent His Son into the world to solve
this problem for man.
ProfG: So, who is Jesus Christ?...
ProfG: According to the Bible, Jesus Christ is
God, the second person of the Trinity, the Creator
of the Universe...
ProfG: @@@ john 1 1
ProfG: @@@ john 1 14
logos6: John1:1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (KJV)
logos6: John1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and
dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory
as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace
and truth. (KJV)
ProfG: God came down into human flesh.
ProfG: What did he come to do?...
ProfG: The whole Bible is about one great transaction.
ProfG: Imagine I have a book in my right hand,
containing a minutely detailed account of our life:
Signoff: hapi (Leaving)
ProfG: everything we've ever done, all of our
sins, all of our thoughts, all of our motives, everything
we've ever done in secret - all are recorded in this
book...
Ferrago: yeah
ProfG: The Bible says that someday the books will
be opened and everybody will know all about us...
ProfG: That's going to be a red-faced day for
many! :-)
ProfG: I'm convinced of one thing: if any man
is judged according to the things recorded in the book
of his life, he will be condemned.
Ferrago: for all.
ProfG: This book in my right hand is our problem,
you see, our sin.
ProfG: It's our sin upon us like a great burden...
hapi (~ssparaci@medea.gp.usm.edu) has joined channel
#biblechat
ProfG: This keeps us out of heaven. This prevents
us from rising up to God. So what's going to be done
with that?
hapi is tired of phone calls...
ProfG: In the Old Testament, God's provision for
sin was described in all the foreshadowing and types...
Ferrago: he gonner chuck it?
ProfG: John the Baptist announced that God's Lamb
had finally come. Then Jesus Christ fulfilled the mission
that was his.
ProfG: What was that mission? Well,
ProfG: simply, it is described right here:
ProfG: @@@ isa 53 6
logos6: Isa53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD
hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV)
ProfG: pretend my left hand is Jesus Christ (no,
really ;-)
ProfG: The Bible says God placed all our sins
on Jesus, so transfer the book in my right hand to
my left hand...
ProfG: He has laid to the account of Christ our
guilt, our sin - the sin which God hates. God has imputed
or laid upon Christ our sins...
ProfG: Then I read something which as a parent
really astounded me:
ProfG: @@@ isa 53 10
ProfG: @@@ isa 53 4
logos6: Isa53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise
him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make
his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed,
he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the
LORD shall prosper in his hand. (KJV)
logos6: Isa53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted. (KJV)
Ferrago: but that sucks!
ProfG: God poured out all of his wrath for sin
on his own Son.
ProfG: Christ in our place, as our substitute,
paid the penalty for sin...
ProfG: and he says that he goes to prepare a place
for us:
Ferrago: cause that means that in gods eyes every
future murder / crime has already been paid for
ProfG: @@@ john 14 2
logos6: John14:2 In my Father's house are many
mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you. (KJV)
ProfG: in a way, and we can talk about that in
a sec...
hapi: *only* if you have accepted Him and ask
for forgiveness!
ProfG: He purchased a place for us in heaven,
is the point.
ProfG: Ferrago, the wonderful thing is that this
place in heaven Christ purchased for us he offers to
us freely as a gift...
ProfG: remember:
ProfG: @@@ rom 6 23
logos6: Rom6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ
our Lord. (KJV)
ProfG: By his grace, he freely offers to give
to us this gift of heaven
ProfG: so, how do receive it?
ProfG: well...
ProfG: remember:
ProfG: @@@ eph 2 8
logos6: Eph2:8 For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of
God: (KJV)
ProfG: Faith is the key that opens the door to
heaven.
ProfG: Someone once said that faith is the empty
hand of a beggar receiving the gift of a king
ProfG: I like that :-)
ProfG: Many ppl think that they have faith, but
they really don't know what it is...
Ferrago: heh poetic :)
ProfG: Let's see what faith is *not*...
ProfG: Many ppl believe that Jesus lived and died
and rose again. And they suppose that this is faith...
ProfG: But this is merely an *intellectual assent*
to certain historical facts.
ProfG: The Bible teaches us that even the devil
believes in Christ in this way. But that won't do...
ProfG: Other ppl think that they have faith in
Christ, but when you ask them what they really mean,
they are only trusting in Christ for the temporal things
of life...
ProfG: such as health, or their children, or their
finances, or strength, or guidance - the things that
have to do only with this life that we live right here...
ProfG: But what the Bible means by faith is *trusting
in Jesus Christ alone for our salvation* - resting
our hope of eternal life in Christ.
ProfG: Christ didn't come down here merely to
get us through an appendicitis operation or to get
us safely on a plane to New York...
ProfG: Christ came to get us to heaven that we
might have eternal life.
ProfG: Faith is trusting in Jesus Christ *alone*
for our salvation.
ProfG: Ppl trust in only one of two things:
Ferrago: why?
ProfG: either in themselves or in Christ.
ProfG: why what?
Ferrago: why create us why do any of it?
ProfG: good question, and one that I think you'll
see will be answered...
ProfG: You see, I was trusting in the same thing
that you mentioned you thought the Bible taught us
to trust in - in my own efforts to try to live a good
enough life...
ProfG: Then I realized that if I could get myself
into heaven this way, I would save myself;
ProfG: and if I could save myself I would be my
savior;
ProfG: and if I were my savior then I would be
in competition with Jesus Christ who claimed to be
the Savior of the world.
ProfG: what I need to do was to cease trusting
in myself and start trusting in Jesus Christ...
ProfG: And so, years ago, sincerely and repentantly,
I did just that, and I received the gift of eternal
life...
ProfG: I didn't deserve it then, and I don't deserve
it now, but by His grace I have it!
ProfG: Let me give a little illustration...
ProfG: is there a chair in the room you are in
besides the one you are sitting in?
Ferrago: er... lets assume the bed :)
ProfG: Do you believe that that bed exists?
Ferrago: no
Ferrago: I know it exists
ProfG: ok...
ProfG: Do you believe that it will hold you if
you sit on it?
Ferrago: yes
ProfG: It's not holding you now. How could you
prove you believe it exists and can hold you?
Ferrago: i know where your coming from profg,
ProfG: really, how can you prove it can hold you?
ProfG: seriously
Ferrago: so you say beleive in jesus and putting
your faith in Jesus is like the bed
ProfG: humor me on this one
Ferrago: by sitting on it
ProfG: ok, let the bed represent Jesus Christ
(no, really, again :-)
ProfG: For a long time, I believed He existed
and could help me, but I did not have eternal life
because I was trusting my own good works to get me
into heaven...
ProfG: Remember what you said you understood the
Bible taught on how to get into heaven? Following the
Ten
ProfG: commandments, etc.?
ProfG: "I have to follow the Ten Commandments"
Ferrago: yep
ProfG: "I have to be a good person"
ProfG: "I have to try to do the best I can"
ProfG: along those lines, yes?
Ferrago: remove the " :)
Ferrago: yep
ProfG: Who is the only person referred to there?
Ferrago: I
ProfG: Who were you trusting in to get you to
heaven if you believed that?
Ferrago: i was not expecting heavan
Ferrago: i don`t know enough about it to know weather
i want it
ProfG: let's assume for the time being that heaven
is more desirable than any other place :-)
hapi: in comparison to eternal damnationand burning...you
DEFINATELY want heaven :)
ProfG: heh
Ferrago: Prof,
Ferrago: i gonner have to cut a short
Ferrago: a = ya
ProfG: Ferrago, one more minute...
Ferrago: ok...i am listening, kjust losing concientration
:)
ProfG: ok, just this
ProfG: does what I've explained to you make sense
to you?
ProfG: To receive eternal life, you must *transfer*
your trust from yourself to Christ, etc.?
Ferrago: yes,
Ferrago: yup
ProfG: I mean, basically, you've just heard the
greatest story ever told, about the greatest offer
ever made, by the greatest Person who ever lived...
ProfG: and, in all seriousness, Ferrago...
hapi: and still lives ;)
ProfG: I may never "meet" you again...
ProfG: The real question is this:
ProfG: Do *you* want to receive this gift of eternal
life that Christ left heaven and died on a cross to
give you?
Ferrago: if the other option is burining the yes,
but what is this eternal life? we know so little of
it, do we have to trust him on this too?
ProfG: the Bible tells us that it is "
hapi: eternal life/heaven is the reward :)
ProfG: life more abundant"
ProfG: better than the spiritual death we have
otherwise
hapi: Ferrago, if you were to die tonight..where
would you go?
hapi: heaven?
ProfG: it's not *just* heaven after we die - it
is REAL life with Him in the here and now
hapi: or hell?
hapi: that question is quite rhetorical...you
do not have to answer us....answer yourself...
Ferrago: i would go to hell, is it is all true..
Ferrago: is = if
hapi: do you want to go to hell?
Ferrago: nope :(
Ferrago: :O)
ProfG: The choice is yours, Ferrago. God loves
you so much that he offers that choice to you. He will
respect your decision to go to hell. But He doesn't
want you to.
hapi: Ferrago, Jesus wants you :)
ProfG: Ferrago, you can choose *right now* to
accept God's offer of eternal life.
Ferrago: if i beleive i go to heavan
hapi: He is here wanting you to turn ti Him right
now and say, "Lord, I'm Yours!" :)
Ferrago: if i don`t i go to hell
ProfG: It's not a coincidence that you are talking
to hapi and I tonight on IRC.
Ferrago: what if i don`t believe in hell does that
make a difference??
ProfG: Ferrago: what if you don't believe in gravity,
does that make a difference when you jump off a 100
story bldg?
hapi: just because you do not believe in something
dfoes not make it not exist...
Ferrago: profg, good answer
Ferrago: ignorance is afterall no excuse
ProfG: God is offering you this gift *right now*,
Ferrago
ProfG: The question I believe He is asking you
is: "Do you want to receive this gift right now?"
hapi: Ferrago, do you want it? :)
Ferrago: of course
hapi: It's yours for the taking :)
ProfG: Then you can, right now.
Ferrago: profg, changin ones opions after 20 years
aint easy, but i will think in this when i awake,
hapi: Ferrago, He will not leave you...ever
Ferrago: i`ll read the log, but what you`ve said
has clarified alot
ProfG: God is here, right now, and we can go to
Him in prayer and we can tell him that you want to
cease trusting in your own strivings and you want to
put your trust in Christ the Lord for your salvation
and receive Him as your personal Savior...
ProfG: you don't have to wait, Ferrago, though
you can choose to of course
ProfG: but no one has a guarantee of tomorrow
hapi: Ferrago, you have two people right here
right now most willingto do what you wantto help...
ProfG: and we would be happy to pray with and
for you
ProfG is lagged...
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