[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/21/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/21/96 [01:35] _
[ref001]
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/21/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/21/96
[01:35] _Q_ (serenity@slip170.UCS.ORST.EDU) joined
#apologetics.
[01:35] <_Q_> hey roy
[01:35] <_Q_> you're all alone?
[01:36] hello Q
[01:36] i was looking up some info on the bot
[01:37] <_Q_> were you abandoned by your compariots?
[01:37] <_Q_> This channel seems to die a lot earlier
than many others.
[01:37] lol...i just got here myself :)
[01:38] i suppose everyone has to get up for Sunday
morn worship services :)
[01:38] <_Q_> perhaps
[01:38] <_Q_> that doesn't seem to stop them on #christian.
[01:38] bitwise (bit@tahoe-d53.foothill.net) joined
#apologetics.
[01:39] salutations.
[01:39] hmmm....i guess they are the nite owls
[01:39] greeting bit
[01:40] <_Q_> hey bitwise
[01:40] any topics being discussed tonight?
[01:40] no we just got here bit
[01:40] <_Q_> not yet
[01:40] <_Q_> what's on your mind, bit?
[01:41] this place is usually quite at this
time....are you all christians?
[01:41] all two of you, that is =)
[01:41] Action: roy is christian
[01:41] <_Q_> once was, no longer
[01:42] hmm..well then...let me ask this...
[01:42] <_Q_> are you christian, bit?
[01:43] Why did God create laws that could
be broken (moral) and laws that could not be broken
(say, gravity)?
[01:43] Action: bitwise is a christian
[01:44] <_Q_> laws is entirely the wrong metaphor, I'd
say.
[01:44] probably, what do you suggest?
[01:45] <_Q_> the principles that govern the interaction
of free beings don't seem analogous to those governing
elementary particles.
[01:46] this seems true, however, it could
be said that we are governed by those principles...as
in my point about gravity.
[01:47] what made you forsake your christianity?
[01:48] <_Q_> Those principles don't have obvious application
to, say, your decision to log on IRC tonight.
[01:48] if I may ask.
[01:48] <_Q_> The physical principles, I mean.
[01:48] <_Q_> Too many philosophical problems, chiefly
the problem of evil.
[01:49] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu:
The Home of Rational Theism
[01:49] explain a little bit.
[01:49] the problem of evil, that is
[01:51] Action: bitwise stumbles into a lag-mire
[01:51] <_Q_> The toleration of intolerable evil by an
allegedly perfectly good & loving god.
[01:52] <_Q_> Evils which we, lowly creatures, would
not tolerate at our best.
[01:52] toleration? hmm....would it be more
loving to destroy evil completely...right now?
[01:53] Q are you an athiest?
[01:53] Action: _Q_ is a deist
[01:53] explain please
[01:54] <_Q_> It isn't a matter of destroying evil altogether,
it's a matter of being non-arbitrary about what evils
one chooses to eliminate.
[01:54] <_Q_> explain deism?
[01:55] yes is God perfect in diesm? or is God
only a force?
[01:56] <_Q_> here's a macro I prepared for #deism...
[01:56] <_Q_> Deism is a belief in a loving creator,
an ultimate & eternal being, who is omnipresent & omniscient
but *not* omnipotent.
[01:56] <_Q_> Contrary to popular Christian propaganda,
ultimate reality ("god" if you prefer) as conceived by
deism is not impersonal at all, merely non-omnipotent,
hence non-controlling.
[01:56] <_Q_> not a mere force.
[01:56] <_Q_> rather perfect love & grace
[01:58] if not omnipotent then how do you explain
the origin of all creation?
[02:01] <_Q_> omnipotence is fine "prior" (logically, at
least) to creation; creation nullifies it: kenosis.
[02:02] Q this seems nonsensical to me ...why would
and attribute of a creator be nullified by his creation
(kenosis)
[02:02] at creation, omnipotence was nullified?
[02:03] if God is eternal then his nature must
be eternal also
[02:04] Silvern (mburnett@biggulp.callamer.com) joined
#apologetics.
[02:04] hello
[02:05] If God nullified his own attribute of omnipotence
knowing what would happen(omniniece) then He would
be an evil God wouldnt he?
[02:05] Silvern (mburnett@biggulp.callamer.com) left
#apologetics.
[02:05] Christ manifested a kenosis...and yet
he did not loose attributes. explain why creation
nullifies omnipotence...
[02:06] <_Q_> I see the creator as temporal, albeit everlasting.
[02:06] <_Q_> brb
[02:07] hmm..
[02:07] where are you from roy?
[02:08] mississippi..and yourself?
[02:08] Ca.
[02:11] <_Q_> why would sacrificing omnipotence affect
omniscience & make god evil??
[02:13] Why would he give up His power to control
the evil if he knew what would happen...why would he
even create in the first place?
[02:14] God does not control the evil.
[02:14] Same problem exists to me...unless there
is another answer
[02:15] at least temporarily. Although, He
has the power to.
[02:16] i know but Q is saying that is why he rejected
Xianty...because God doesnt use his power
[02:16] ah, yes...
[02:16] and we Xians believe God is in control...there
are no accidents
[02:16] <_Q_> creation is out of love.
[02:16] so is freewill
[02:16] Q ...do you have children?
[02:16] thus, evil
[02:16] <_Q_> Freedom is all-or-nothing; real or illusion;
there cannot be control and be freedom of creatures.
[02:16] <_Q_> However, the xian god allegeedly retains
the controlling power but uses it selectively & arbitrarily.
[02:16] Action: _Q_ has not reproduced
[02:16] Q an example
[02:16] If you were going to have children and
assuming it was planned
[02:16] Do you think 10years down the road the
children will commit evil..lie.cheat ect?
[02:16] Wouldnt you have them anyway?
[02:16] <_Q_> let me say to "we Xians believe God is in
control...there are no accidents" -- this is the essence
of what I reject in xianity: it is nihilistic.
[02:16] explain
[02:16] how nihilistic?
[02:16] <_Q_> roy: re children I fail to see a real analogy
there.
[02:17] Action: bitwise has never heard christianity
called *nihilistic*
[02:17] <_Q_> nihilistic because if there is no real
contingency, our actions are meaningless, predicated
on illusion.
[02:17] <_Q_> bit: It's about time you heard it ;-)
[02:17] <_Q_> It's my principle crtiticism of not only
xianity but most religions.
[02:17] Q: let me try with a different twist
(I don't have children) but parents have a measure
of control over their children...and yet they are free
to make there own choices...even if for rebilion...
[02:17] <_Q_> principal, rather.
[02:17] procreation of children for a purpose out
of love knowing they will commit evil acts is very
similar to me logically to God creating his children
out of love knowing they will committ evil acts..so?
[02:18] <_Q_> The difference is that we would definitely
intervene in their lives to prevent intolerable evils.
[02:18] so where is the problem?
[02:18] <_Q_> The xian god,tho able, does not.
[02:18] how so Z
[02:18] Q?
[02:19] we could not stop them...unless we
literally bound them or incapcitated them some way.
[02:19] <_Q_> As we should if necessary.
[02:19] how do we intervene?
[02:19] <_Q_> You must understand the magnitude of evil
I'm referrring to here.
[02:20] <_Q_> I'm not talking about lying!
[02:20] by correction...punishment?
[02:20] all evil is evil
[02:20] <_Q_> Would you not do whatever was necessary
to prevent, say, the holocaust?
[02:20] lying is evil
[02:20] <_Q_> Kill Hitler, e.g.
[02:20] <_Q_> Sorry, some evil is trivial compared to
others.
[02:21] if God is good ..lying is against His nature..he
MUST hate it...and must judge it
[02:21] <_Q_> Torture vs lying: you figure it out.
[02:21] Hitler was not responsible for the
holocaust.
[02:21] <_Q_> Judgement & wrath: other human-centered
characteristics that have nothing to do with god,IMO.
[02:21] would killing one person stop such
evils?
[02:21] <_Q_> BRB
[02:23] Q what makes evil evil?
[02:23] what is sin/
[02:24] roy: are there different levels of
sin, as Q suggests?
[02:24] Ismene (sigh@134.193.59.2) joined #apologetics.
[02:24] greetings Ismene
[02:24] sure but sin is sin...the nature of sin
is the same...REBELLION against God
[02:25] roy...si is human nature, not rebellion
against some higher power.
[02:25] Ismene, it is both
[02:26] rebellion against higher power(God) = human
nature
[02:26] bitwise: no...rebellion requires a massing
of forces and conflict. Sin is nayure
[02:26] We have All sinned and gone astray Romans
[02:27] rebels are those who trying to overthrow
the kingdom of a Soviegn..hence we are rebels
[02:27] I am not trying to overthorw anyone,
roy.
[02:27] well with such a technical definition,
I might concede...none the less, the idea of his point
encompasses a form of rebellion.
[02:28] you do when you sin
[02:28] bitwise: get out your dictionary.
[02:28] <_Q_> back in 10 min. if you wish to continue
the discussion...
[02:29] God says do this...and say i will not have
a god to rule over me...hence i WILL do as i please
[02:29] Ismene: I do not wish to splice apart
words...I agree with your definition...however, rebellion
is often used interchangably in our culture to imply
what roy is saying...such as the rebellion of a teen
ager against his parents...
etc.
[02:29] its part of our nature to rebel..like our
father the devil(unbelievers)...we are his enemies(Romans)
[02:30] But the devil is...okay. Now...roy.
i do not believe in such a being.
[02:30] so, how can a figment of your impagination
forc me to rebel?
[02:31] there is no forcing, only persuasion.
[02:31] a rebellion against the commands of a soveirgn
power is the same as rebelling against that power itself
[02:32] okay. how can a figment pursuade me
if it does not exist
[02:32] force...you do it freely and love it...thats
the problem...IT IS part of our nature...
[02:32] he could not, if he did not exist...but
we contend that he does.
[02:32] bitwise: yet i contend he doesn't.
[02:33] i didnt say the devil made you do ...i
said we are of the same nature
[02:34] None of us loves God and wants to do his
commandments
[02:34] we are. all evil, just some of us can
control it.
[02:34] why did you come to this conclusion,
Ismene? and, before I say anymore, I guess I should
ask: do you believe in a God? (though rare, I have
seen people who believe in one and not the other)
[02:34] None is righteous ...NO NOT ONE..romans
3
[02:35] I believe in a God, not your version.
[02:35] kcc (kcc@204.119.59.98) joined #apologetics.
[02:35] hello?
[02:35] Do you love God with all your heart, soul
and mind Ismene?
[02:35] how do you know what my *version* is?
[02:35] hey kcc
[02:35] Hi..
[02:35] greetings, kcc
[02:35] bitwise: the christian god.
[02:36] Is this a Christian room?
[02:36] by the way you treat me and the questions
you ask, it is my logical conclision
[02:36] what does Ismenes god look like..what
are his attributes?
[02:36] hello
[02:36] Ismene did you say you believe in the Christian
God?
[02:37] why isnt fellowship room open?
[02:37] roy: no.,
[02:37] kcc: what are you looking for, friend?
[02:37] bitwise: i am not that arrogant to know
what my God is specifically like
[02:37] what or who are you gods Ismene?
[02:37] roy: they are.
[02:38] sorry to bother y'all, but does anyone
know why fellowship room isnt open?
[02:38] are what?
[02:38] Ismene: I did not mean it that way
at all...I merely was trying to get a grasp on your
previous statement about him being *different* than
the christian God...
[02:38] explain please
[02:39] kcc the channel #fellowship?
[02:39] I see the christian god as boxy, and
therefore my god/s are de-boxed
[02:39] so you make your own god up that you like?
[02:40] bye all..
[02:40] see ya kcc
[02:40] kcc (kcc@204.119.59.98) left #apologetics.
[02:40] roy: not that
[02:40] How does that solve the matter of your
sin Ismene?
[02:40] your sin must be dealt with
[02:40] you do sin dont you?
[02:41] roy: no i am infallable
[02:41] kidding
[02:42] so what about your sin then?
[02:42] Action: bitwise notices that this was Ismene's
mistake...thus his infallibility exposed =)
[02:42] Okay...bitwise. note the "kidding" after
it.
[02:42] what will your god/gods do about your sin?
[02:42] And, bitwise, you need to brush up on
your Sophocles
[02:42] and note the smile following mine =)
[02:43] roy: it is not what they do about it
that is important, it is what i do about it.
[02:43] kcc (kcc@204.119.59.98) joined #apologetics.
[02:44] re kcc
[02:44] something happened
[02:44] You see Ismene THAT is the problem with
your paradigm what CAN you do about it?
[02:44] what kcc?
[02:44] roy: i can improve myself, learn from
what i did, and change for the better
[02:44] I was given +v then It was taken away and
then no one answered me..
[02:44] What about the sins you have already committed?
[02:44] roy: what do you mean?
[02:44] What can YOU do about those?
[02:44] the person took it away from the other
person in that room..
[02:44] no one was able to talk..
[02:45] kcc, there is no one on #fellowship
tonight. Did you try and msg LadyCarol...she may be
away from her computer?
[02:46] Ismene the God of the Bible is unlike any
god ...no only is He Good and Loving..but foremost
He is Holy...sin must be judged
[02:46] roy: how can he judge who is eveil and
good when he himself has commited evil.
[02:46] Ladycarol is the one that gave me +V and
then we both lost it..
[02:47] he who is fallable
[02:47] if evil makes anysence in this world its
only in the christian paradigm..Evil will be judged..every
bit of it by a Holy Judge
[02:47] roy: that is sheer arrogance
[02:47] explain Ismene
[02:47] Ismene: explain your comment about
God committing evil...
[02:47] explain what?
[02:48] God committing evil
[02:48] well, he did.
[02:48] Has God ever lied?
[02:48] he brought evil into the world.
[02:48] how?
[02:48] kcc: he let it happen.
[02:49] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu:
The Home of Rational Theism
[02:49] Ismene show me evidene
[02:49] evidence
[02:49] how do you know?
[02:49] he is omniopotent right?
[02:49] What is your scource?
[02:50] Action: _Q_ has returned to join forces with
Ismene
[02:50] yes he is omnipotent
[02:50] so?
[02:50] Q?
[02:50] thanks.
[02:50] OKay...now if he is omniopotent, than
he has a lot of power right?
[02:50] welcome back Q
[02:51] yes all powerful
[02:51] <_Q_> christians are far too fixated on judgement,
IMO.
[02:51] so?
[02:51] does he know everything.
[02:51] kcc (kcc@204.119.59.98) left #apologetics.
[02:51] Q you were the fixated on evil and how
its not being judged:)
[02:51] sure
[02:52] knoble (knoble@acca.NMSU.Edu) joined #apologetics.
[02:52] Nick change: knoble -> Fermat
[02:52] hi
[02:52] <_Q_> stopped, not judged.
[02:52] I must agree with you Q on that one.
However, the reasons should seem clear.
[02:52] <_Q_> I'm not interested in punishment, but in
doing or permitting no harm.
[02:53] bitwise: sheer arrogance?
[02:53] <_Q_> yes, all to clear.
[02:53] <_Q_> too
[02:53] Wolfman (ss@remote201.compusmart.ab.ca) joined
#Apologetics.
[02:53] merely stopping it?...why not judge Hitler
for his deeds as well as stopping Him
[02:54] Ismene: no, not at all.
[02:54] Fermat (knoble@acca.NMSU.Edu) left #apologetics.
[02:54] ...just a bit?
[02:54] greetings Fermat
[02:54] If God is Holy and evil is bad...evil must
be judged
[02:54] roy: okay, so a God who knows everything
knows evil is going to be brought into the world, and
lets it happen. No points for cruelty.
[02:54] <_Q_> roy: what about grace & forgiveness?
[02:54] im sure your not Q
[02:54] <_Q_> grace is infinite.
[02:54] Q this lets you off the hook for all the
evil you do
[02:54] greetings, Wolfman
[02:54] Do you do evil Q?
[02:54] Why do you do it?
[02:54] <_Q_> the creator is not concernec with meting
out "just deserts."
[02:54] Why doesnt your god stop you?
[02:54] but be sure God Will judge you for it
[02:54] <_Q_> roy: precisely! that is the gospel of grace
- we are all let off the hook!!
[02:55] <_Q_> my "god" sacrificed control so that there
might be love.
[02:55] thats right .."the fool says in his heart
no God"
[02:55] <_Q_> in doing so all manner of evil is risked.
[02:55] you God is evil to do that
[02:55] <_Q_> It gets down to the ultimate question:
is it all worth it?
[02:56] and he is not Holy..without sin..if he
will not judge it
[02:56] If he is righteous he will judge all sin
[02:56] Q: do you believe in an afterlife...heaven/hell?
[02:56] question is Q you still have the same problem
of an "evil" god
[02:57] <_Q_> roy: now, like all true xians, you've brought
out th ebg guns - threatening me with judgement
[02:57] an evil weak god who is not good or holy
and apparently doesnt care about the problem of evil
[02:57] <_Q_> Afterlife, yes, hell no - it is an abominable
doctrine.
[02:57] ......Jesus Christ!...I go take a piss
and you guys flipped three screens on me.....must be
a heavey convo.
[02:57] <_Q_> The worst thing xianity gave to the world.
[02:58] A Good god= judgement
[02:58] okay...do you believe it will be without
pain, suffering, sin?
[02:58] evil god could care less
[02:58] Q: agreed
[02:59] <_Q_> love = grace = forgiveness, as in the parables,
e.g. the prodigal son.
[02:59] Q what about the problem of your evil?
[02:59] <_Q_> I don't even understand what you said about
an "evil weak god" earlier.
[03:00] ....My god is like the size of my bank
account....seldom talked about......with a rteturn
on interest that can barely keep up with inflation.
[03:00] <_Q_> Is my god evil in your eyes?
[03:00] scroll back Q
[03:00] God can forgive...but he does not "force"
change...this is where we need to choose...and thus
forgiveness completes the circle.
[03:00] yes evil weak and could care a less about
evil
[03:01] .....anyone here know the latest count
on the number of gods in the world.?
[03:01] <_Q_> scrolled back... nope - can't see the evil
[03:01] roy: evil is weak?
[03:01] Wolfman scores two points for a sense
of humor...
[03:01] <_Q_> wolfman: too many to keep track of ;-)
[03:01] Imene a unominipotent god is weak
[03:02] <_Q_> the creator has all the power it is logically
possible for a good being to hae.
[03:02] ......unominipotent?...hmmmmm....
[03:02] Q what about the evil in your world?
[03:02] <_Q_> have.
[03:02] roy: than does your God qualify as such?
[03:02] yes ismene
[03:03] <_Q_> roy: evil is the inevitable consequence
of a multiplicity of free beings - I already said that.
[03:03] Only christainity has the answer to sin
[03:03] and evil
[03:03] roy: so your god isn't omniopotent?
[03:03] Action: _Q_ must briefly adjourn to prepare
a steaming cup of caffeinated elixer
[03:04] evil is only biological nuerons firing
in the brain Q?
[03:04] ....does god play dice with the universe?....could
it all be one big random cosmic swirl of matter and
gas?....or...was Einstein correct?
[03:04] Ismene He is omnipotent..but He cant do
everything
[03:05] Roy...your wrong!.....the Catholics
are the only ones that can eleviate sin.
[03:05] roy: if he can't do everything, then
he is powerless.
[03:05] <_Q_> roy: " evil is only biological nuerons
firing in the brain, Q?" - we are really on different
wavelengths; I don't know where you get these impressions
of what I'm saying.
[03:05] He cant do anything against illogical or
against is own will
[03:05] and nature
[03:05] <_Q_> " Only christainity has the answer to sin
and evil
[03:06] <_Q_> sorry
[03:06] roy: well, those two are seperate.
[03:06] <_Q_> slip of the mouse
[03:06] Roy!...your wrong...the Buddhists are
the only ones that can eleviate sin.
[03:06] He CANT make a circle into a square ..this
would be irrational and illogical
[03:06] roy: to your mind
[03:06] Fermat (knoble@acca.NMSU.Edu) joined #apologetics.
[03:06] Roy!...your wrong!...the Hindus are
the only ones that cn forgive sin.
[03:06] roy: but how can you know what a God
thinks?
[03:06] <_Q_> "Only christainity has the answer to sin"
- its answer is to torture ppl forever!
[03:06] where is buddha wolf?
[03:06] Fermat (knoble@acca.NMSU.Edu) left #apologetics.
[03:07] explain torture Q
[03:07] <_Q_> Wolfman: there are dice all over the place!
[03:07] God cannot lie
[03:07] ...Buddha sits across the aisle from
your god in the cosmic bus.
[03:07] <_Q_> roy: eternal damnation, hell - that's torture
by a vindictive "holy" being.
[03:07] what is hell all about to you Q?
[03:08] <_Q_> wolfman: thanks for injecting a bit of
levity ;-)
[03:08] blessings to you ppls...I hope we will
get a chance to discuss some more.
[03:08] bitwise (bit@tahoe-d53.foothill.net) left #apologetics.
[03:08] ....peace be with you bitwise.
[03:08] i thought you were concerned about the
evil in the world Q
[03:09] <_Q_> yes, roy, what about it?
[03:09] ....there is evil in the world?
[03:09] roy: concern for the world has little
to do with what religion you are
[03:10] Q perhaps God is mad at the evil too
[03:10] ......BINGO!...well said Ismene!
[03:10] |