[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/5/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/5/96 [02:32] NCC
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#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/5/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/5/96
[02:32] NCCSA1862 (NCCSA186@hou-tx8-18.ix.netcom.com)
joined #Apologetics.
[02:32] Diogenes (diogenes@becker2.u.washington.edu)
joined #apologetics.
[02:33] Ah...irrational theism.
[02:33] Diogenes: What's that?
[02:33] RedTango (silver@ip179.lax.primenet.com) joined
#apologetics.
[02:34] Hello RT
[02:35] hello
[02:35] whew
[02:35] Diogenes (diogenes@becker2.u.washington.edu)
left #apologetics.
[02:35] Jus1drful (b.jacoby@shark.commerce.com) joined
#Apologetics.
[02:36] yo
[02:36] Hey RedTango, what were you saying
about sadist?
[02:36] oh, i said God is a sadist
[02:36] RT: God is a sadist. Define your
terms.
[02:36] o.k. why do you think that?
[02:37] we're waiting.
[02:37] He uses eternal torture to punish
people..and this is supposed to be the ultimate in
intelligence.
[02:38] RT: I would offer that that sentence
"God is a sentence" contains a self-referential contradiction,
and there is absurd, and untrue.
[02:38] what?
[02:38] you lost me there
[02:38] Actually, we as individuals make
the choice to be eternally separated from God. He
gives us our wish--whether that be to love Him and
ask forgiveness, or reject His Son and reject forgiveness.
[02:38] I say that sentence contains a contradiction,
and is untrue
[02:39] so God isnt a sadist?
[02:39] Correct: here it is:
[02:39] He gave us the option through Jesus'
sacrifice for our sins to be forgiven and be *promised*
eternal life with Him.
[02:39] Here it is: By "God" is to be understood
infinite being, increated, having in himself all possiblities
actualized all at once.
[02:39] Jus, why have hell at all? Why cant
God accept jews and bhuddists and all the other ways
the people worship?
[02:40] God is totally without limitations.
[02:40] NCCA, God is a myth
[02:40] I'm glad you asked....God is 100%
holy in nature and cannot be in the presence of sin.
[02:40] Sin has separated us from Him.
[02:40] By "Sadist" is understood a particular
type of being, namely with limitations, e.g. a sadist
is not a philanthropist.
[02:41] But these terms are mutually contradictory,
and therefore God cannot be a sadist.
[02:41] NCCA, i beleive God to be a sadistic
mythological figure.
[02:41] God provided a way for us to be forgiven
of our sins and be cleansed so that we are positionally
holy in His eyes.
[02:41] Armchair semantics doesnt change anything.
[02:42] Jus, are you married?
[02:42] Yes.
[02:42] RT: First, this is not semantics.
[02:42] Do you love your wife?
[02:42] Absolutely.
[02:42] Mike_Baun (baun@fat-23.cybergate.com) joined
#apologetics.
[02:42] RT: Second, if your definition of
God includes the following qualities: a) he does not
exist, or b) he is limited, then:
[02:42] Jus, and you also think that sinners
can be forgiven and they can go to heaven if they repent,
no matter what the sin?
[02:43] a) no propositions can be made about
him at all, or b) he is not really God, and so the
proposition again fails/
[02:43] I'm just applying some logical rigor
to your proposals.
[02:43] Yes. Jesus died for *all* sins of
*all* people on the cross. Our role is to trust in
His payment and choose to willingly follow Him.
[02:43] So if you were in Heaven and one of
these sinners approached you, you would not condemn
him because he accepted Christ....?
[02:44] RT defaults.
[02:44] Next?
[02:44] NCCA, i do not get into the logical/contradictory
disccusions where it turns into a mathmatical equation
trying to cancel another one out...sorry.
[02:44] Yves (yves@199.84.216.49) joined #apologetics.
[02:44] No....because only forgiven people
can goto Heaven. I'm a sinner, but I have been forgiven.
[02:44] RT: So you don't like thinking logically?
OK, RT defaults, because he wants to be illogical.
Next?
[02:45] RT: Are you married by any chance?
[02:45] Usually those sort of discussions
are carried out by men who are afraid to feel anything
and deal with real emotions and rela issues.
[02:45] Yves (yves@199.84.216.49) left #apologetics.
[02:45] Emotions are irrelevant in the quest
for truth
[02:45] Hello Mike!
[02:45] Jus, you didnt understand me, i am
saying if you were in heaven and forgiven, and a sinner
came up to you, you would love him, as he is forgiven
too, no matter what the sin?
[02:46] NCCA, emotion is where you will find
the truth.
[02:46] Yes i am amrried
[02:46] Absolutely.
[02:46] GREG (strandbg@UCS.ORST.EDU) joined #apologetics.
[02:46] RT: Offer an explanation as to why.
[02:47] Jus, so what if the sin of this guy
was that he raped your wife, cut her up and presented
her in a box at your doorstep...you would love him
just the same?
[02:47] hello all
[02:47] NCCA, because religion is the result
of fear and guilt.
[02:47] Absolutely.
[02:47] Locum (Schildt@slip56.vianet.net.au) joined
#apologetics.
[02:47] hello mike_baun and Redtango
[02:47] Jus, what of your wife?
[02:48] Hi Greg
[02:48] Red herring. What does that have
to do with it? By your own criteria, therefore, religion
is true because it's based on emotion
[02:48] No, i didnt say it is true, i said
it was a result.
[02:48] so what is this chanel supose to be about
[02:48] RedTango, what if when you were dating
your spouse and he (right?) put a gun to your head
and said 'love me'. Is that love?
[02:48] Sure, Greg, don't say hello to everyone.
[02:48] Gee, no one wanted to stay in #bible
with boring old Frank Bama?
[02:48] Christinity is fundamentally historical
based.
[02:48] :)
[02:48] The resurrection.
[02:48] hey now red: be nice
[02:49] The death of Christ.
[02:49] Jus, explain the connection between
that and your wife being chopped up.
[02:49] Be nice? WHy, the guys a big bore.
[02:49] Mike: What evidence would you offer
to someone skeptical about the resurrection?
[02:49] Pentecost
[02:49] God didn't create us as robots.
True love requires will to love the other person in
the relationship.
[02:49] Jus, and what of your wife?
[02:49] My wife will be in Heaven no matter
how she dies.
[02:49] NCCSA1862: any thoughts on this yourself?
[02:50] So nothing really matters to you then.
[02:50] Mike, I do have some thoughts, but
wanted to hear yours first!
[02:50] So redtango: you jucked off without my
knowing it and i was talkin to my self or was i
[02:50] 100% of us are going to die none
of us escape that fact....what is important is where
we go when we die.
[02:50] jucked off?
[02:50] sorry
[02:51] took
[02:51] I love my wife and would dread that
kind of death, but how she dies I cannot control.
[02:51] Jus, so if a person rapes and strangles
100 women, they can go to heaven as long as they repent,
but if an athesit spends a lifetime trying to heal
women who have been raped, they go to Hell, correct?
[02:51] Mike?
[02:51] so what are you guys discusing sounded
like some sort of killing or something
[02:51] Well, everyone wanted me to leave,
what could i do.
[02:51] NCCSA1862: I'm here.
[02:51] I asked a moment ago...
[02:52] I want your thoughts first
[02:52] NCCSA1862: thinking :)
[02:52] RedTango, you are placing importance
on what a person's merits are to get into heaven.
God sees us all as sinners that cannot come into His
presence. Even the 'best' of us sin.
[02:53] NCCSA1862: I would take a historical
approach together with fullfilled prophecy ...
[02:53] Redtango: question. Do you not believe
that there is a god?
[02:53] Jus, so the atheists who help rape
victims go to Hell, and the repented rapist/murderer
goes to Heaven, correct? Yes or no?
[02:53] Greg, i do NOT beleive in God, no.
[02:54] Mike: keep going
[02:54] redtango: You don't believe in God in
any way shape or form. am i correct in saing this?
[02:54] We stand on one side of a chasm and
God is on the other....sin is the chasm. If you try
to build a bridge across it, you will only make it
part of the way because you are not 100% perfect.
Only Jesus lived the perfect life t
hat none of us could live and thus died as a perfect
sacrifice on the cross for our sins.
[02:54] RT: a decidedly illogical position,
I might add...
[02:54] Jus, yes or no?
[02:54] His bridge goes 100 percent of the
way across and spans the gap.
[02:54] yes or no?
[02:54] Yes.
[02:55] The atheist is unforgiven, the murderer
is.
[02:55] And that is why i do not beleive in
God.
[02:55] man, that is so sick, so twisted.
[02:55] But only because the murderer was
forgiven by the shed blood of Jesus.
[02:55] RT: Read Dante's inferno.
[02:55] And people say atheists are "immoral"
[02:55] Mike: I still want an elaboration
[02:56] NCCSA1862: it would be very detailed
[02:56] RedTango, even now Jesus offers you
eternal life and you are choosing not to receive it.
[02:56] That's fine
[02:56] Locum (Schildt@slip56.vianet.net.au) left #apologetics.
[02:56] I like detail
[02:56] going over the recorded circumstances
of the trial of Christ
[02:56] redtango: I like to kinda think about
sin in this way. Its kinda like a compass that doesn't
point true north. what good is it.
[02:56] A gift is only a blessing if you
let someone give it to you, RedTango.
[02:57] that is unfortunately true:)
[02:57] Jesus' gift is free. No tricks.
He offers you Life eternal if you admit you are not
perfect and ask His forgiveness.
[02:57] NCCSA1862: the first thing I would
extablish is why He was brought to pilate
[02:57] Jus, cant you see why this is so sick
to me, at all? Certainly you can.
[02:57] Very good. I'm listening
[02:58] I can see you're standpoint, RedTango.
It does seem unfair, but you aren't acknowledging
that *all* people are sinful no matter how 'nice' they
are.
[02:58] RT: But youre being so illogical
about it? Why should god accept you, if you spend your
whole life rejecting him?
[02:59] The entry requirement to Heaven isn't
to do good things with your life. It is that you must
be *perfect* to be in the presence of a Holy God.
[02:59] Redtango: I think it is rather unfair
of you to ask me or anyone else what Gods rightoues
judgment will be, only a fool would try to answer that
question with no qualifier
[02:59] This can only come through a *perfect*
sacrifice to remove your sins.
[02:59] NCCSA1862: I would establish that
it was because they wanted him to decree the death
penalty.
[03:00] Versus take the matter before the
Sanhedrin
[03:00] God doesn't hate people who go to
hell. He sent his beloved Son to die a tortured death
because He loves them so much.
[03:00] Well, gentlemen, I'm off to bed.
Mass tomorrow, you know. Mike: EMail me. I'm interested
in what you have to say. NCCSA186@ix.netcom.com
[03:00] Goodnight
[03:00] see ya
[03:00] NCCSA1862: I recommend a book
[03:00] Who moved the Stone
[03:00] Go ahead
[03:01] What do you think about what I said
there, RT?
[03:01] Fine, but I'd like best to hear it
from you...
[03:01] NCCSA1862 (NCCSA186@hou-tx8-18.ix.netcom.com)
left irc: Leaving
[03:01] Jus, sorry, i was reading my e-mail
[03:01] That's o.k.
[03:01] Jus, i read it and it means nothing
to me, i have had enough nonsense for one evening.
[03:02] You have shown yourslef to be pretty
twisted
[03:02] see ya
[03:02] What did I say that is twisted?
[03:02] RedTango (silver@ip179.lax.primenet.com) left
#apologetics.
[03:02] typical bash
[03:02] You can break down walls, but they
run behind others because they are running from God.
=================================================================
[17:29] newsong (newsong@perham-40.dialup.eot.com)
joined #apologetics.
[17:30] hello David
[17:30] Hello!
[17:30] hello David...glad to meet you again
[17:31] you have some statements you wish to
make?
[17:31] Well, where is the evidence for god's
existance?
[17:31] I think I shared some over on Bible....what
is your evidence He does not exist?
[17:32] I will listen to your case about the
non-existance of God...David
[17:33] New - Well, since I do not know much
about the topic, I was hoping someone here could enlighten
me.
[17:33] David!!!!....you don't know much.?????....interesting.....
[17:33] Without being too personal...if I may
ask....
[17:34] Have you attended a christian church
[17:34] I have been to more churches than most
people.
[17:34] ok....christian?....can you share denomination?
[17:35] All I am asking for is some evidence
that god exists.
[17:35] I understand....just wondering what
your point of reference is....that's all...
[17:36] here are a few places to start...wait
1 one....
[17:36] Waiting....
[17:36] !niv Rom 1 19
[17:36] hmmm...wonder if bot is working....
[17:37] Tell me in your own words, then.
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[17:40] the creator God?....reject the God
who created you?
[17:40] I'm a believer...but this isn't evidence
is it?
[17:40] New - Yes, what happens if one rejects
him?
[17:41] of course....that would...first and
foremost...be that persons choice...correct?
[17:41] New - Yes, a personal choice.
[17:41] So, what happens to such a person?
[17:42] Percy (goober.pea@xyp103p18.ltec.net) left
#apologetics.
[17:42] The question is not what happens to
such a person.....the question is: how do you believe
about God...who was revealed in the flesh through his
son Jesus Christ?
[17:43] New - but I am asking you: what happens
to someone who rejects your god?
[17:43] what happens if you reject Jesus Christ...who
was made to be your atonement for your sin?
[17:44] New - I am asking you that very same
question.
[17:44] The rejection of redemption that was
provided for your sin...would mean that the consequences
of sin...is death
[17:45] and what is death....but separation
from the presence of God
[17:45] New - What does: "consequences is death"
mean?
[17:45] consequences of sin....don't misquote...
[17:46] Well, what does that mean?
[17:46] because man is born of sin....
[17:46] there must be a atonement made for
that sin....
[17:46] How is it that man is born of sin?
[17:47] Where did sin originate?
[17:47] because of Adam's sin.....
[17:47] sin originated with Lucifer.......
[17:47] So, the sin of Adam is within each of
us?
[17:48] but Adam/Eve choose to disboey......and
sin came onto the earth
[17:48] you take issue with that....David
[17:48] New - Ok, I got that so far, no problem.
So, what you are saying is that the sin of Adam was
passed onto us?
[17:49] B_ (bc13@pool014.Max26.Los-Angeles.CA.DYNIP.ALTER.NET)
joined #Apologetics.
[17:49] yes....is that a issue with you?
[17:49] Hello?
[17:49] New - So far I understand. So, the
way it works is that my parents passed that "sin" onto
me?
[17:50] hello B
[17:50] Hey B
[17:50] I have a really dumb question.
[17:50] yes...
[17:50] and that is why Jesus was sent....
[17:50] I noticed your topic... How can theism
be rational?
[17:50] Newsong - What was your answer?
[17:51] New - So, my parents passed that "sin"
onto me, right?
[17:51] as did mine...DAvid....I am not justified
thru my parents....
[17:52] New - How did my parents pass it onto
me?
[17:52] my parents cannot atone for me...only
the blood of Jesus
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[17:52] in Adam all die.....so in Christ all
will be made alive
[17:53] New - How did my parents pass this "sin"
onto me?
[17:53] Death came into the world as a result
of Adam and Eve's sin....
[17:53] however...while we were yet sinners...Romans
said...Christ bore our sins...
[17:54] you still have stated what your opposition
to God is...David...
[17:54] New - How -exactly- did my parents pass
this "sin" onto me?
[17:55] because it passed through Adam.....the
same way sin was passed to me via my parents....
[17:55] Later, maybe.
[17:55] B_ (bc13@pool014.Max26.Los-Angeles.CA.DYNIP.ALTER.NET)
left #Apologetics.
[17:55] you take issue what such a statement?
[17:55] We were all born into Adam;s physical
family
[17:56] All of us have reaped the results of
Adam;s sin...
[17:56] We have inherited his guilt, a sinful
nature...
[17:56] New - wait a second here. I am asking
you how "specifically" my parents passed this "sin" onto
me. Explain this.
[17:56] what is your point?
[17:57] New - this has to do with my views of
your god. I would like you to answer that question.
And please be specific.
[17:59] perhaps I am not as learned as you
David...I have attempted to state biblical truth...so
then come forth with your view of my God....
[18:00] New - can you, or can't you, tell me
specifically how my parents passed on this "sin" to me?
[18:00] I have stated as clearly what the Bible
says.....I apologize is that is not plain enough for
you....
[18:00] is=if
[18:01] Ok, my parents gave me genetic material,
and nothing else (when I was in the womb, that is).
So, this may give us a hint. Is "sin" physical?
[18:02] is death physicial?.....or will death
be both spiritually and physically?
[18:02] New - what is the nature of sin? What
"is" sin?
[18:03] simply stated....unbelief
[18:03] disobedience
[18:03] So, the "sin" that adam passed onto the
rest of humanity is "unbelief"? Is this correct?
[18:04] rebellion
[18:04] are we born into a knowledge of God?.....
[18:04] Answer my question.
[18:04] you have stated your answer...there
is no God....
[18:05] No, I said I have not seen "evidence"
of your god. That does not at all mean that god does
not exist. Now, answer my question.
[18:05] Is "sin" unbelief?
[18:05] very interesting answer....DAvid.......so
evidence and existing is different?
[18:06] Is "sin" unbelief?
[18:07] Is "sin" unbelief?
[18:07] |