[ref001]
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/6/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/6/96
[00:31] creation (dcovalt@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu) joined
#apologetics.
[00:31] Mode change '+o creation ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu
[00:32] uh....._howdee_
[00:32] what's the discuss Alcuin?
[00:32] zen, i HAVE questioned my faith and
i appreciate your challenging it
[00:32] TheRaven: I am at the university
of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign.
[00:32] so, can anyone else explain to me
what "rational" theism is?
[00:32] where did everyone go?
[00:32] oh!
[00:32] I forgot!
[00:32] um
[00:32] I'm not alcuin
[00:32] darn
[00:33] Why do we have to challeng one another.
If our faith has relevance then the other person will
be attracted to it.
[00:33] newsong (newsong@perham-40.dialup.eot.com)
left #apologetics.
[00:33] so zen, waht was the question again?
[00:33] Zen: Talk to Acolyte about it. He
would be happy to tell you. Although I think it is
obvious.
[00:33] zen: theism is rational.
[00:34] Zen. I think it means that they can
prove their belief through logic.
[00:34] creation: my question is asked, however,
because it seems to me whenever i get into a discussion,
it quickly becomes irrational.
[00:34] Action: Judith isn't going to take that one
on.
[00:34] Nick change: Alcuin` -> Flyer-
[00:34] zen: The discussion or theism?
[00:34] Because the bible is irrational
[00:34] zen
[00:34] creation: the explanations seem to
quickly dissolve into "i have faith" etc.
[00:35] which is not rational as far as I
understand the definition
[00:35] zen: Everyone has faith.
[00:35] faith is where it all ends up. even
faith in logic
[00:35] I am not the Alcuin that frequents this
channel...sorry for any misunderstanding.
[00:35] zen: are you equating rational and logical?
[00:35] zen: is faith irrational?
[00:35] yes, i was referring to faith in
god, jesus and the bible
[00:35] i was referring to faith in god,
jesus and the bible
[00:36] zen: Why is belief in God, Jesus
and the Bible irrational?
[00:36] faith in your own experience is rational
[00:36] creation: but faith in what....faith
is only as good as the object it is placed in.
[00:36] zen: define faith.
[00:36] creation: faith in miracles, etc,
is irrational.
[00:36] zen: Why?
[00:36] zen: Why is it irrational?
[00:37] zen : Why is belief in them irrational?
[00:37] zen: because you say so?
[00:37] zen: define faith.
[00:37] creation: does not the definition
of the word rational imply that there are logical explanations?
whereas miracles do not have logical explanations.
[00:37] nomos: that is not relevant/
[00:38] zen: Logical based on the presupposition
that there is a God.
[00:38] zen: it is if you do not know the meaning
of the word
[00:38] zen: Logic presupposes the existence
of God.
[00:38] zen: define pistis
[00:38] or pisteuo
[00:38] creation: so, then, your "rational"
and mine are different.
[00:38] or give me a secular definition
[00:38] really creation?
[00:38] nomos: what is your point?>
[00:39] zen: I am trying to understand if you
can define the words, to understand what you are basing
your conclusion on
[00:39] zen: If you don't believe that there
is a God, how can you even speak of what is rational
and what isn't?
[00:39] AegisIII: yes
[00:39] zen: do you believe in spontaneous existence?
[00:39] spontaneous generation
[00:39] creation: oh please. i am not even
going to get into a discussion based on your assertion
that god created what is rational.
[00:39] and you say that because?
[00:39] Zen: God is logic. Without God there
is no logic.
[00:40] do you believe in spontaneous generation?
[00:40] Zen: YOu can't contend with this?
[00:40] zen: do you believe in spontaneous existence?
[00:40] creation: well, then we have nothing
to discuss.
[00:40] zen:
[00:40] ?
[00:40] if god created logic, than logic would
have to be entirely arbitrary, as whatever god decided
was logical would be logical
[00:40] AegisIII: God IS logic
[00:40] nomos: i would ask you to refrain
from firing questions at me while i am having a conversation
woth someone else.
[00:41] creation: what do you mean by that?
[00:41] god is logic? thats an assertion
[00:41] zen: fine.
[00:41] zen: I'll wait if you like.
[00:41] Aegis: yeah, it is one that follows
from logic. :)
[00:41] creation: what do you mean God is logic?
[00:41] Aegis: Is there a time when the laws
of logic didn't exist?
[00:41] odd, ive never reached that conclusion
[00:41] Judith (Sandra@199.86.33.188) left #apologetics.
[00:41] Aegis: Try harder
[00:42] sure, when people didnt
[00:42] creation: if you say that "god created
logic and all that is rational" and I say "he did not
because there is no god" there really is no way to argue
it, i
s there?
[00:42] zen: no, because that is a tautological
argument.
[00:42] :)
[00:42] Aegis: Oh, so when people didn't
exist, then A doesn't equall non-A didn't hold?
[00:42] no when people didnt exist, logic
was meaningless
[00:42] Zen: God is logic.. Capish?
[00:43] creation: what do you mean by that statement,
God is logic?
[00:43] same with morality
[00:43] Aegis: logic isn't meaningless.
[00:43] thw word "logis" would be meaningless
[00:43] logis=logic
[00:44] creation: you may choose to label
"god" what I call "logic". but, your definition goes further
than that, does it not?
[00:44] Aegis: the words are only meaningless
if they refer to nothing. I say that the words refer
to something and therefore have meaning.
[00:44] fine then, explain logic or morality,
without using humans in any way
[00:44] Zen: Sure, but I don't have to go
farther to prove my point.
[00:45] logics is a science (or a methodology)
how can God be a science or methodology???
[00:45] AegisIII: Simple, God's standard.
[00:45] Hello creation
[00:45] BTW, nomos: i define rational as
that which can be based upon reason or logic.
[00:45] hello theraven
[00:45] zen: Then theism is rational
[00:46] uhh were trying to prove wether god
exists, right? so what is god's standard? how did
he decide it?
[00:46] creation: explain to me how, if jesus
or god can perform miracles, those events would be
based on reason and logic. to me, a miracle, by definition
is NOT what would normally follow.
[00:46] Aegis: Ever here of the transcendental
argument?
[00:47] Hey Zen. I answered your question.
How about checking it out and answereing?
[00:47] zen: you are resticting logics to the
laws of nature??
[00:47] yeah-it sounds strange, i dont put
much basis on it
[00:47] zen: that's interesting ; )
[00:47] Zen: Theism is logical and reasonable.
Miracles are reasonable in a theistic paradigm
[00:47] snowberry (snowberr@ad11-070.compuserve.com)
joined #apologetics.
[00:47] zen: where do you think "logics" or "rational
thinking" originated?
[00:47] but again-how did decid what his basis
for logical would be?
[00:48] creation: then, if you and I are
in a different paradigm, our meaning of rational differs.
[00:48] how did god decide that is?
[00:48] zen: was Socrates/Plato/Aristotle theists?
[00:48] AegisIII: No one has brought up
any good counter agument to it as of yet.
[00:48] was=were
[00:48] no on eputs much weight on it
[00:48] nomos: were they the first logical
thinkers?
[00:48] zen: you don't know?
[00:48] What is the argument
[00:48] nomos: i assert that they were not.
[00:48] How old are you Zen? and what sex?
[00:48] Zen: If you are not in a theistic
paradigm then you are the one that is in trouble, not
me. You are the one that won't have a basis for knowledge
or ethics, not me.
[00:49] creation: i basically reject that
statement
[00:49] what is the Debate
[00:49] Aegis: bull crap
[00:49] zen: it is obvious you have never read
from Plato or Aristotle.
[00:49] Flyer- (whoneeds@dial9.vonl.com) left #apologetics.
[00:49] creation-how did god decide what his
basis for logic would be?
[00:49] Zen: Prove me wrong
[00:49] nomos: grow up, i have a degree in
philosophy.
[00:49] snowberry (snowberr@ad11-070.compuserve.com)
left #apologetics.
[00:49] Aegis: Does it matter. It is based
on His character.
[00:49] zen: please.
[00:49] zen: your point?
[00:49] zen: nice ad hominem there bud
[00:50] zen: did you learn that in philosophy?
[00:50] nomos: heheh
[00:50] zen: or does that come natural?
[00:50] nomos: if i need to spell it out
for you, you cannot get a degree in philosophy without
reading the greek thinkers. understand it now>?
[00:50] his character- and how does his character
make his basis of logical correct?
[00:50] nomos: it is natural.
[00:50] Action: creation wishes acolyte were here,
then we could have some real fun :)
[00:50] zen: thought so.
[00:51] Zen. What do you think happens to you
after death?
[00:51] zen: so are you non theist then?
[00:51] atheist
[00:51] whatever
[00:51] mantro: basically, i don't know.
[00:51] Aegis: The conception that I hold
of God.
[00:51] zen: so are you non theist then?
[00:51] Nomos: Do you believe in anything
[00:51] nomos: yes.
[00:51] Zen. Did you read what I wrote for
you?
[00:52] in private
[00:52] raven: certainly...do you?
[00:52] conception? that's it. you think
god's character causes logic only due to your conception
[00:52] mantro: i did, but i have not really
considered it, i got involved here.
[00:52] zen: so are you non theist then?
[00:52] I believe in God the creator of the
Heavens and the earth
[00:52] raven: amen...as I
[00:52] thats OK zen. just move on to whatever
interests you
[00:52] nomos, pay attention, i answered
that already.
[00:53] raven: I also believe in His Son, Jesus...and
in a literal resurection
[00:53] PTL so do I
[00:53] Aegis: I have a concept of God.
Anselmian. From the concept it falls logically that
He must exist.
[00:53] Aegis: You have to deal with my conception.
If you can't then that is your problem.
[00:53] Zen. The only reason I keep bugging
you is because I see you as the only seeker of truth
here.
[00:53] zen: I didn't catch it....care to restate?
[00:54] nomos: yes, i am an atheist.
[00:54] ahh the ontological argument. ive
done some thinking on that. the most perfect being
only leads to contradictions
[00:54] but alas, maybe I should move on....
[00:54] Aegis: Wrong.
[00:54] wrong on what?
[00:54] mantro: based upon what?
[00:54] You all are having more fun with your
bible debate.
[00:54] mantro: you know us well enough to assert
that?
[00:54] zen: so then...that proves my point....you
believe spontaneous generation is logical???
[00:55] Spontaneous generation is not logical
for me
[00:55] Aegis: Not only do you have to deal
with the ontological argument, you have to deal with
the cosmological, the transcendental, the teleological,
etc and many reditions of them.
[00:55] spontaneous generation is a hoax
[00:55] AMEN
[00:55] creation: sounds like you have read a
lot of Tillich or Chardin
[00:55] Your mind is made up. Zen admits he
doesn't know things for sure. More enlightened to
me.
[00:56] nomos: i do not hold that god and
the creator are necessarily one and the same.
[00:56] Action: AegisIII only is gonna concetrate on
the ontological right now, as he really should be sleeping
[00:56] what is onotlogical
[00:56] Action: creation needs to study for his finals.
[00:56] Theraven: ontological refers to state
of being.
[00:56] creation- feel like stopping?
[00:57] Aegis: I should. I have to study.
[00:57] noah (none@dd15-108.compuserve.com) joined
#Apologetics.
[00:57] ok. bye
[00:57] noah (none@dd15-108.compuserve.com) left #Apologetics.
[00:57] zen: interesting thoughts....based upon
what? your own subjective thoughts?
[00:57] AegisIII (estoeben@asm4-2.sl003.cns.vt.edu)
left irc: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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