(128) Wed 1 Jun 94 3:17 Rcvd: Fri 3 Jun 23:27 By: lippard@ccit.arizona.edu, Centra
(128) Wed 1 Jun 94 3:17 Rcvd: Fri 3 Jun 23:27
By: lippard@ccit.arizona.edu, Central Computer Banks-mcws (1:102/851)
To: Fredric Rice
Re: Re: David Fasold
St: Pvt Rcvd
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From cheshire.oxy.edu!CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU!LIPPARD
From: LIPPARD@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU ("James J. Lippard")
To: Fredric.Rice@f890.n102.z1.fidonet.org
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 1994 00:43:34 -0700 (MST)
Fredric:
Yes, I have spoken with David Fasold on the telephone a couple of
times. He was a source of information for my Ark hoax article in
_Skeptic_. (If you haven't seen it, the published version is on
rtd.com in /pub/zines/skeptic, along with other _Skeptic_ articles.)
I consider Fasold to be of quite questionable reliability. When I
spoke to him, he advocated all manner of Velikovskian-type thinking.
He has a favored Ark site--the same one that Ron Wyatt, Allen Roberts,
etc. have been promoting and which got considerable international
press recently. (Copies of articles coming in separate mail.)
That site has been debunked by both John Morris (and he does a pretty
good job of it, surprisingly enough) and Bill Crouse. Copies of both
coming in separate mail.
Fasold told me on the phone that his present view is that his favored
site probably wasn't actually the Ark of Noah, but was the source of
the myth. I don't think that's very likely, either, but it's certainly
more plausible than the claims that have been published.
More info coming in separate messages.
Jim
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By: lippard@ccit.arizona.edu, Central Computer Banks-mcws (1:102/851)
To: Fredric Rice
Re: Re: David Fasold
St: Pvt Rcvd
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From cheshire.oxy.edu!CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU!LIPPARD
From: LIPPARD@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU ("James J. Lippard")
To: Fredric.Rice@f890.n102.z1.fidonet.org
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 1994 00:44:02 -0700 (MST)
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From: kgs@maths.uq.oz.au (Ken Smith)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Noah's ark found *again* ?
Date: 23 Jan 1994 23:23:44 GMT
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Over the past week there have been several articles in our State daily
newspaper "The Courier-Mail" about the alleged finding of the remains
of Noah's Ark in Turkey. Three relevant paragraphs from the first
article, published on January 18, under the by-line of June Southworth
from London read:
A team of scientists investigating on the Turkish-Iranian
border for the past six years has found a buried, ship-like
object high in the mountains 26km from Mount Ararat.
Salih Bayraktutan, head of the geology department of the
Ataturk University in Turkey, confirms that the team has found
a vessel which could very well be the ark.
Turkish authorities have designated the remote site below the
mountains of Al Judi as one of special archaeological
interest, and digging is due to begin in the northern summer.
First question: Does anyone know anything about Salih Bayraktutan?
Is he reliable? Does he have Islamic fundamentalist leanings?
A subsequent paragraph in the article read:
An American shipwreck specialist, David Fasold, says that
radar imagery about 22m down from the stern is so clear that
he can count the floorboards between the walls of the vessel.
Second question: Does anyone know anything about David Fasold?
A paragraph in a follow-up article on January 20 read:
The project, led by American ark hunter Ron Wyatt, will
resume in May when the weather improves.
Third question: Can anyone confirm that Ron Wyatt is one of those
people who have been looking for the ark for years? (the name seems
to ring a bell with me).
An earlier paragraph in this article read:
Archaeologist Jonathan Gray, who recently returned to Adelaide
from the site, said yesterday the latest discoveries near Mt
Ararat on the Iran-Turkey border confirmed it was one of
history's most significant finds.
Fourth question: Does anyone know anything about Jonathan Gray?
(I'll send a copy of this direct to Chris Nedin - it's his locality).
I can't finish this without including some of the stuff from the
latest article which appeared on January 22. This is a summary of an
interview with Jonathan Gray, and is accompanied by some
illustrations. One of these is labelled "An artist's re-creation
based on archaeologist Ron Wyatt's drawings". The other is a small
diagram with three labels:
1. Ark's original resting point after flood waters recede.
2. Volcano erupts and lava forces ark 4km down the mountain.
3. Ark impaled on huge rock and eventually covered by mud from
volcano.
One sentence in this article reads: "There is some urgency on the
excavation plan because parts of the vessel are caving in under
the weight of mud". So there we have the let-out if it all comes to
nothing, as is likely in view of past happenings.
I'll let other people comment on what lava would do to a wooden vessel
while pushing it 4km down the mountain. Anyone from Hawaii?
The reason I am posting is that I haven't seen anything about this on
any of the newsgroups I have read the past week. Is this just a bit
of Australian hype? Has it been in papers in USA?
Ken Smith
--
Dr. Ken Smith | snailmail: Department of Mathematics,
email: kgs@maths.uq.oz.au | The University of Queensland,
Mathematician by profession; | St Lucia, Qld. 4072.
reason sometimes rules. | Australia.
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To: Fredric Rice
Re: Re: David Fasold
St: Pvt Rcvd
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From: LIPPARD@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU ("James J. Lippard")
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Date: Wed, 01 Jun 1994 00:44:07 -0700 (MST)
From: IN%"prl@csis.dit.csiro.au" 23-JAN-1994 23:30
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From: prl@csis.dit.csiro.au
Subject: Noah's Ark
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I saw this float past on sci.archaeology. Have you seen/heard anything
about it? Is it an old story that's been recycled for the silly season?
The name David Fasold in the text as a "ship-wreck specialist
with no religious affiliation" sounds familiar, but I can't place it.
Colour me skeptical.
Peter Lamb (prl@csis.dit.csiro.au)
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From: fayegh@cs.ubc.ca (David Fayegh)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Noah's Ark
Date: 22 Jan 1994 09:54:18 -0800
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From: The Vancouver Sun, Tuesday Jan 18, 94
Scientists say boat buried high on mountain is Noah's Ark
Martin Wroe
The Observer
LONDON -- Noah's Ark has been found on the Turkish-Iranian boarder,
30 kilometers from Mount Ararat, according to the leader of a team
of scientists who have been investigating the site for six years.
The Turkish government is so convinced by the team's findings that,
after years of intransigence, it has designated the site one of
special archeological interest and agreed to its excavation next
summer.
The remote site contains a buried, ship-like object, resting -- oddly,
for a ship -- at an altitude of 2,300 meters. At 170 meters long and
45 meters wide, it conforms almost exactly to the 300 cubits by 50
cubits specified by G-d in building instructions to Noah, according
to chapter six of the Bible's Book of Genesis.
On surrounding terrain, the American and Middle Eastern scientists
have identified huge stones with holes carved at one end which they
believe are ``drogue-stones'', dragged behind ships in ancient world
to stabilize them.
Salih Bayraktutan, head of geology at Trukey's Ataturk University,
estimates the age of the ``vessel'' at more than 100,000 years.
The site is immediately below the mountain of Al Judi, named in
the Koran as the resting place of the Ark.
David Fasold, an American ship-wreck specialist with no religious
affiliation, says sub-surface radar surveys of the site have produced
very good pictures. ``The radar imagery about 25 meters down from
the stern is so clear you can count the floorboards between the walls.''
He believes the team has found the fossilized remains of the upper
deck and that the original reed sub-structure has disappeared.
@Via Squish 1:102/851.0, Thu Jun 02 1994 at 06:56 UTC
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(131) Wed 1 Jun 94 3:17 Rcvd: Fri 3 Jun 23:29
By: lippard@ccit.arizona.edu, Central Computer Banks-mcws (1:102/851)
To: Fredric Rice
Re: Re: David Fasold
St: Pvt Rcvd
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From cheshire.oxy.edu!CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU!LIPPARD
From: LIPPARD@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU ("James J. Lippard")
To: Fredric.Rice@f890.n102.z1.fidonet.org
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 1994 00:44:14 -0700 (MST)
Path: news.Arizona.EDU!skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu!lippard
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins,alt.atheism
Subject: Bill Crouse on the Fasold/Wyatt/Roberts "Ark" claim
Date: 29 Jan 1994 14:29 MST
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_Ararat Report_, no. 17, May-June 1988
Christian Information Ministries, International, 2077 N. Collins Blvd., Suite
201, Richardson, TX 75080, (214) 690-1975 or 699-7620
Edited by Bill Crouse
The Durupinar Site
Ron Wyatt: Are His Claims Bonafide?
Historical Background
In 1959 a pilot in the Turkish Air Force on a NATO mapping-mission in the
mountainous terrain of eastern Turkey photographed an unusual ship-shaped
object near Mt. Ararat. Later when these aerial photographs were viewed
stereoscopically by Captain Ilhan Durupinar, he noticed that the object looked
even more like a ship.
But what was a ship doing in those rugged mountains?
After examining the stereo photos, photogrammetry expert, Dr. Arthur
Brandenberger of Ohio State, declared that the object was entirely
foreign to the area, and if the object proved to be a ship someone had
better explain how it got there.
Photographs of the strange formation appeared in the world press and
created a sensation. Speculations abounded that it was Noah's Ark. This
editor remembers well seeing the photos in _Life_ magazine (9/5/60) as a
teenager. At that time there were already those who were interested in
mounting expeditions to search for Noah's Ark. The new discovery caught
them quite unawares since most believed the Ark was actually on Mt.
Ararat and not on a foothill some 15 miles away.
A group, calling themselves the Archaeological Research Foundation
(ARF), investigated the "ship" with the full cooperation of the Turkish
government in the summer of 1960. After doing preliminary excavation
and dynamiting one of the sides, they concluded that the formation was
only a freak of nature, a clay upthrust in a lava field. No artifacts
or petrified wood were found.
For the next 20 years the Ark search was concentrated on Mt. Ararat
itself. From 1960 till 1984 nothing was heard of the "ship" formation.
Attention again focused on the Durupinar site (which is what we have been
calling it in this report) in the summer of '84 when Ron Wyatt convinced
Col. Jim Irwin, Dr. John Morris, and Marvin Steffins to take a look at
the site.
Ron, who can be a very persuasive fellow, succeeded in convincing
Steffins it was the Ark. Steffins immediately flew to Ankara to hold
a news conference and announce the discovery. The next day the news
was broadcast throughout the world.
Some Christian radio and TV stations played it up pretty big. This
editor was in Denver at the time, and one radio station was reporting
that explorers had succeeded in getting inside the Ark and that wood was
being flown back to the states for testing.
I was ecstatic since I had just returned from a trip to Ararat myself.
Ark fever was at a high pitch. I was puzzled, however, by the report that
the Ark was only at the 6,300 foot level. It was not until two days later
that I learned that the "Ark" discovered was none other than the
"phenomenon ship" written of in Violet Cummings' book (_Noah's Ark: Fact
or Fable_, pp. 204ff.)
During the summer of 1985 there were Kurdish insurgents on Mt. Ararat
preventing any teams from carrying out their exploration plans. The
focus instead shifted to the Durupinar site.
Indeed so much interest was being generated that ABC filmed a special
which was later aired on the television program 20/20. It was also
highlighted on Christian Broadcasting Network newscasts.
Today, as most of our readers know, there is mounting controversy
as to whether or not there is sufficient evidence to conclude that the
ship-shape is Noah's Ark. It is the purpose of this issue of _AR_ to take
a careful look at what has been put forth as evidence, and to focus on
Ron Wyatt's claims since he is the one who is chiefly responsible for
reviving interest in this site.
It is safe to say that without Ron Wyatt's efforts there still would
be no interest in the "ship" discovered in 1959 by Durupinar. With
varying degrees the following men have either advocated the site as the
authentic Ark of Noah, or feel that it deserves further inquiry: David
Fasold, Marvin Steffins, Dr. William Shea, Rene Noorbergen, and Dr.
John Baumgardner. All of them owe their initial interest in this site
to Ron Wyatt.
[It continues for another seven pages. Some highlights:
* Wyatt is a nurse anesthetist (CRNA) from Madison, TN. He first
traveled to Turkey in 1977 and tried to find the site by hiring a cab,
circling the outskirts of Dogubayazit at night, and praying that God would
cause the cab to stall out anywhere God wanted him to look. This happened
several times, and each time Wyatt made a pile of stones by the road side.
He did not find the site during that trip.
* A photo on p. 7 of the article shows an aerial view of Little Ararat
which features *three* similar ship-shaped formations.
* Wyatt claims to have found Sumerian, Hurrian, and Urartian
inscriptions which prove that his site is the Ark. He hasn't produced
them for anyone else to see.
* Wyatt claims to have discovered the Ark of the Covenant (at the exact
spot where Jesus was crucified) and to have held the stone tablets of
the Ten Commandments. He claims to have discovered the exact spot
where the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, and to have found chariot
parts under the water. He claims to have found the 12 altars built by
Moses in Exodus 24. He claims to have solved the problem of how the
pyramids were constructed. He claims to know how the Shroud of Turin
was fakes, and to have cracked the code of the Copper Scroll (of the
Dead Sea Scrolls). He claims he can read any ancient inscription in
any language.
* Wyatt has claimed to have graduated with honors from the Univ. of
Michigan in pre-med and to have finished all the requirements for M.A.
and Ph.D. degrees in antiquities. He has claimed to be a veteran of
the Korean war. He actually has no degrees and there is no record of
his service in the Korean war. He did attend Western Michigan University
and other schools for a number of years, but did not earn a degree.
* One person who has donated approximately $30,000 to Wyatt's expeditions
asked Wyatt to undergo a polygraph test when Wyatt asked for more money.
Wyatt agreed to undergo the tests, and the results were such that no
more money was forthcoming.
-jjl]
Jim Lippard Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Path: news.Arizona.EDU!skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu!lippard
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins,alt.atheism
Subject: John Morris on the Fasold/Wyatt/Roberts "Ark" claim
Date: 29 Jan 1994 12:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona
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Institute for Creation Research, _Impact_, September 1992
231--THE SEARCH FOR NOAH'S ARK: STATUS 1992
by John D. Morris, Ph.D.
Professor of Geology and Administrative Vice President at ICR. Director,
Ararat Project.
[Page i and almost all of page ii are just about the biblical story
and Morris' own expeditions.]
[bottom of p. ii:]
Interestingly enough, there are a few individuals who claim the
Ark has already been found. Thy point to an interesting boat-shaped
formation discovered in 1959 in a Turkish aerial mapping project.
It is situated some
[page iii:]
seventeen miles from the summit of Greater Ararat (i.e., with the
"mountains of Ararat"), is of a size compatible with the Biblical
dimensions (515 feet by 138 feet), and is in a streamlined "boat
shape."
The site has been investigated several times over the years, first
in 1960 by a joint Turkish-American expedition, then by several
groups in the '60s and '70s. My first efforts to study it in 1975
were thwarted by the local military, but two subsequent surveys
were more fruitful. My conclusion, and the conclusion of almost
every other team, was that it is an unusual geologic phenomenon,
but not Noah's Ark.
In the late 1970s, Mr. Ron Wyatt began studying the area. While
a non-scientist, Wyatt tirelessly surveyed the area, eventually
marshaling several lines of evidence to support his contention that
this formation is Noah's Ark. Eventually, Wyatt joined forces with
David Fasold, Dr. John Baumgardner, Dr. Allen Roberts, and others.
Baumgardner, a geophysicist, was able to perform several scientific
tests on the site, such as magnetometry, ground-penetrating radar,
seismic, and finally core drilling. Although he was at first open
to the possibility that the site was the Ark, Baumgardner now contends
he has disproved the hypothesis, especially by the core-drilling, which
revealed only the sorts of rock on the nearby hillsides, and nothing
of archaeological significance.
Meanwhile, Wyatt and Fasold have both published books on the
"discovery" of the Ark, although they have now parted company and
disagree about many of the important details.
Wyatt claims he has found much petrified wood, of a type which had
no tree rings. (He holds that pre-Flood trees had no rings.) Fasold
claims the Ark was constructed of cemented reeds which have since
decayed away. Wyatt talks of the remains of three decks, rooms, and
timbers, while Fasold feels the impression of the decayed ship is
about all that remains. Both refer to "drogue stones," or stones
suspended by rope from a boat and used to maintain stability and
navigation. Both refer to corroded metal fittings, which they claim are
found in rows, delineating the "ribs of the ship," as indicated by
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metal detectors and especially a "molecular frequency generator."
This device, which includes two hand-held brass rods that cross when
the sub-surface target is located, has been used by both to generate
significant aspects of their data. Let me comment briefly on each of
these points:
* On my two field studies and the investigations by many others, and
in the microscopic studies of samples gathered at the site, *no*
petrified wood has been found. The rock types are somewhat exotic,
but I have found neither wood nor cemented reeds. (By the way, petrified
woods from before the Flood *do* have tree rings. Evidently, while the
seasons may not have been as pronounced, they were sufficient to produce
rings in the woody trees, as is obvious by studying petrified wood
from numerous geologic layers.)
* The reliable subsurface tests do show distinct buried layers, but core
drilling identified these layers as rock surfaces natural to the area.
[page iv:]
* The drogue stones are found at some distance from the site; the nearest
one, to my knowledge, being fourteen miles away. They are not dissimilar
to many tombstones in the area, and are currently found in graveyards.
* The metal "fittings" are a serious overstatement. Much metallic ore
is present in the surrounding hillsides and on the site. Furthermore,
igneous cobbles are frequently present, which contain high concentrations
of naturally occurring magnetic minerals. A metal detector will indicate
this high concentration, which could be mistaken for a metal object.
The sporadic cobbles were not found in a straight line, according to
those present at the time, but ribbons connecting the locations of these
cobbles did obviously appear in a line. Subsequent metal-detector
surveys by independent parties, including Baumgardner, have *not*
discerned any pattern.
* The molecular frequency generator, with its crossing, hand-held,
brass rods, appears to employ the ancient art of divination--a practice
thoroughly condemned by Scripture. At best, the results are hardly
considered trustworthy. But it is this device which has produced the
main support for the claim of metal fittings.
Both Fasold and Wyatt are articulate and assertive in their manner, and
many have been convinced. They have aggresively promoted themselves and
their works, and in so doing, have intimidated many and frustrated serious
scientists and Ark searchers. Both have shown a tendency to attack,
personally, those who disagree with them. In their writings and interviews,
each has demonstrated disdain for Christians, in general, and ICR, in
particular.
The site itself has received some attention with Turkey, and there is an
effort to promote it as the Ark, in hopes of receiving tourist dollars. An
unfurnished "visitor's center" has been built overlooking the site.
Unfortunately, getting to the site is difficult. A narrow, rutted, dirt road
winds up a steep hillside to a nearby village, but it is not navigable by
many cars. Claims of a six-lane highway leading to the site are false.
My own geologic survey, coupled with microscopic analysis of all the rocks
gathered and the thoughts of Baumgardner and others, has led to the
conclusion that the formation, which rests between two hills on the side of a
larger hillside, was formed as soil and mud slid downhill around a stable
area, leaving a streamlined shape. Suffice it to say that there is a
perfectly straightforward geologic explanation for the formation, and
absolutely no indication that it is of archaeological significance.
[more on general Ark-hunting in 1992]
[The above should prove a useful source of quotations for anyone
wishing to write letters to the editors of newspapers which have
just recently been promoting this Ark claim yet again. I've found
that references to the creationists' own writings are more likely
to be listened to by creationists than any debunkings by
non-creationists. -jjl]
Jim Lippard Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
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From: alanf@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM (Alan M Feuerbacher)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Noah's ark found *again* ?
Message-ID: <13485@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM>
Date: 29 Jan 94 17:10:29 GMT
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In article
cnedin@geology.adelaide.edu.au (Chris Nedin) writes:
>....
>And this gem from the end of the interview, "Shortly after I became
>convinced of the authenticity of the Ark, I was divinely guided to several
>other discoveries which are equally astounding confirmations of the total
>infallibility of the Bible, as Noah's Ark is."
Wyatt also made this claim in his 1989 book _Discovered: Noah's Ark!_,
World Bible Society, Nashville. To see how far out this guy is, you
really have to read his book. It says that other books will be
published with titles like "Discovered: Giants!," "Discovered: Ark of
the Covenant!," and "Discovered: Diary of the Demon."
Alan Feuerbacher
alanf@atlas.pen.tek.com
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E-Mail Fredric L. Rice / The Skeptic Tank
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